# Welll Looky here. Ex-Fox News host Gretchen Carlson sues network head Roger Ailes for sexual... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253 "2016-07-06T19:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/121 "2016-07-10T07:46:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The same thing happened in the [Jian Ghomeshi case](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/10/29/jian_ghomeshi_8_women_accuse_former_cbc_host_of_violence_sexual_abuse_or_harassment.html) as more women came forward. > > But hey, if anyone dares to suggest that women should have thought better than to work with those creeps, they are _blaming the victim_! At least, that’s what **Miller** accuses me of. Apparently I’m a misogynist no better than Roger Ailes for suggesting that Roger Ailes is a fucking douchebag and unethical misogynist who should be strung up by his ancient balls from the nearest tree for the way he treated Carlson. > > P.S.- and yes, I’m still in a bad mood for other reasons as previously stated. Hey wolfpup, its a touchy subject. Expect to get blanched. Regarding Roger Ailes, we haven’t had a **gift** like this in a long … long … time. Be grateful, olde man! Pax. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/122 "2016-07-10T11:08:00Z")
What befuddles me are the many references to “journalists” and “journalism.” Those don’t happen on television, whether you’re talking about FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, or The CW. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/123 "2016-07-10T12:11:24Z")
I will say this: I do hope that Gretchen Carlson will reflect on her own tenure at Fox News and ponder if she participated in a media culture that helped perpetuate the idea that women ought to function in support roles and exist mostly to provide sexual satisfaction (even in the mild form of being a hot pair of legs on camera)–because that is closely tied to the narrative that sexual abuse complaints are overblown, that women are likely to lie, that quid pro quo relationships are a normal part of business. I don’t watch Fox news, and so I don’t know if that’s the case with Carlson–maybe she did great work to subvert that narrative as best she could. But I do think that there is a connection between those two paradigms, and no one would be better poised to discuss it than someone in her situation, and while there’s no obligation for her to do so, I have to admit it’s a daydream I have. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/124 "2016-07-10T12:38:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But hey, if anyone dares to suggest that women should have thought better than to work with those creeps, they are _blaming the victim_! What can the “should have thought better” mean, if not that she is in the wrong for making the decision? I think a woman ought to be able to take absolutely any legitimate employment opportunity she might choose, and not be subject to sexual harassment and abuse from her employer or colleagues. You disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/125 "2016-07-10T12:45:43Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Women also have the right to work for whoever they want to, but if one chooses to work for CBS News, one goes to Fox, and one goes to work for a bordello in Reno, they also get to be called out for their lifestyle choices and judgment. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Carlson absolutely and unequivocally had the _ **right** _ not to be harassed, and the shitheads at Fox are 100% to blame. Her poor judgment in going to work for those assholes is an entirely separate issue. How do you keep it separate? What does “calling out” consist of, that carries no element of blame? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/126 "2016-07-10T12:55:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Apparently I’m a misogynist no better than Roger Ailes… Ailes is way worse. You write like an insensitive jackass unconscious of his privilege and sexism. That’s bad, but it’s not anywhere near actually assaulting subordinates, no. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/127 "2016-07-10T13:39:04Z")
Remember this is the same network that referred to a female fighter pilot as having “boobs on the ground”. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/128 "2016-07-10T14:17:03Z")
> [@andros](#): > > …and shouldn’t be surprised when he inevitably acts like a douchebag? No, you are still surprised. You are surprised because you’ve been told over and over again about how much liability a company has when sexual harassment occurs. You’ve been to sexual harassment training, where they told you the company takes it “very seriously,” and you signed a piece of paper on ethics and probably another one on sexual harassment. So yeah, your boss sort of is a creeper. He sometimes stares at your chest when he talks to you. But you are sure he’ll never cross the line because you’ve been told over and over again the company doesn’t tolerate it. And when he does, the first time, you think “oh, yeah, he’s a creeper, but that was just a slip - because he might be a creeper, but he is also a high level professional.” And he “slips” again, and again - and then he actually has his hand on your ass and you think “this guy isn’t slipping.” In my case I was newly divorced, with a mortgage, no savings. Complaining meant bankruptcy - so I held my tongue until I was in a position to say something. Gretchen Carlson - I would assume - doesn’t have the financial worries I did, but its a small industry - going into arbitration with your boss is going to kill your lucrative TV career - you worry you won’t find another job - especially when your reputation is for “Fox journalism.” She is at the end of her “looks cycle” - she isn’t Barbara Walters or a man - capable of continuing into her 70s. If she wanted to continue to do TV journalism, she had to put up with it and wait until the ride was over to complain. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/129 "2016-07-10T14:31:37Z")
If what you want to say is that “Fox News is a shitty company full of shitty people who say and do shitty things” that’s one thing. But extending that to “people who accept jobs at Fox should expect (and thus implying that they shoulder some of the blame) for the shitty things that happen to them” is going to land you in the soup. If you look seriously at the implications of that, it’s really no different than “You didn’t have to accept a job at a company where they sexually harass people. Just get a different job!” Which is the situation women faced when they couldn’t do anything about sexual harassment, regardless of whether the company they worked for was run by Roger Ailes. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/130 "2016-07-10T14:32:36Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > . . . > > In my case I was newly divorced, with a mortgage, no savings. Complaining meant bankruptcy - so I held my tongue until I was in a position to say something. Gretchen Carlson - I would assume - doesn’t have the financial worries I did, but its a small industry - going into arbitration with your boss is going to kill your lucrative TV career - you worry you won’t find another job - especially when your reputation is for “Fox journalism.” She is at the end of her “looks cycle” - she isn’t Barbara Walters or a man - capable of continuing into her 70s. If she wanted to continue to do TV journalism, she had to put up with it and wait until the ride was over to complain. A sad state of things indeed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/131 "2016-07-10T14:56:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Shouldnt we let this lawsuit be adjucated before we decide guilt? I know that lots of people hate FN but even they deserve the presumption of innocence until its proven otherwise. As a matter of law, yes. We are, nonetheless, entitled to form opinions, since our opinions do not partake of the force of law, we are not obligated. If I were, Og forbid, called to jury duty on this matter, I would be morally and legally obligated to try, at the very least, to view the matter without prejudice and with an open mind. There is a part of me that regards Megyn Kelly, for instance, as an attractive person. It is not the part that I use to make decisions. What, never? Well, hardly ever… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/132 "2016-07-10T14:59:22Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Shouldnt we let this lawsuit be adjucated before we decide guilt? I know that lots of people hate FN but even they deserve the presumption of innocence until its proven otherwise. We’re not a court of law or the justice system. We’re not obligated to make a casual conversation conform to that standard. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/133 "2016-07-10T15:26:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > . > But hey, if anyone dares to suggest that women should have thought better than to work with those creeps, they are _blaming the victim_! At least, that’s what **Miller** accuses me of. Apparently I’m a misogynist no better than Roger Ailes for suggesting that Roger Ailes is a fucking douchebag and unethical misogynist who should be strung up by his ancient balls from the nearest tree for the way he treated Carlson… When you’ve calmed down from your temper tantrum, perhaps you could tell us what the word “should” means. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/134 "2016-07-10T15:53:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There is a part of me that regards Megyn Kelly, for instance, as an attractive person. Even with the bleeding parts? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/135 "2016-07-10T15:59:32Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > She is at the end of her “looks cycle” - she isn’t Barbara Walters or a man - capable of continuing into her 70s. If she wanted to continue to do TV journalism, she had to put up with it and wait until the ride was over to complain. “Continue”? She was a talking Barbie Doll on “Fox and Friends”. A very well-paid acting gig, yes, but hardly “journalism”. She had the brains and ambition to have made a career in journalism, to be Barbara Walters if you like, but that isn’t the career path she chose. The one she did choose was nearing its end no matter how the end was going to come. None of which excuses Ailes or blames her for the demands for sex, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/136 "2016-07-10T16:11:06Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Percentages do have to add up to 100, though. So when I say Ailes and Doocy are 100% to blame, since you refuse to do the math, I’ll do it for you and tell you how much blame that leaves to Carlson: zero. And I have no doubt that a court decision would reach the same conclusion. So there is a contradiction between my statement that she has no blame in the matter and your claim that I’m blaming her, and the contradiction is explained by the fact that your interpretation of my statements is delusional. > Try to think logically. _ **Why** _ is it good advice? It’s good advice because Fox is a shitty place for women to work where bad things happen. If something bad then happens to someone who chooses to go there anyway, “I told you so” may be harsh and unsympathetic but not untrue. And it’s not “blame”, because the person didn’t cause the bad behavior. > > No, it absolutely is not. The latter is a clear denial of women’s fundamental rights, which ought to include the right to wear whatever they want and to present themselves attractively if they want to. It’s an attempt to turn the blame from testosterone-infested criminal delinquents to innocent victims who have done nothing wrong. The position you’re trying to attribute to me is the worst kind of distasteful misogyny that I never have and never would engage in and I really wish you’d cut it out. > > Women also have the right to work for whoever they want to, but if one chooses to work for CBS News, one goes to Fox, and one goes to work for a bordello in Reno, they also get to be called out for their lifestyle choices and judgment. Yeah, if that girl chooses to go the frat house and do a series of vodka shots, let us focus on her lifestyle choices and judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/137 "2016-07-10T17:03:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Continue”? She was a talking Barbie Doll on “Fox and Friends”. A very well-paid acting gig, yes, but hardly “journalism”. She had the brains and ambition to have made a career in journalism, to be Barbara Walters if you like, but that isn’t the career path she chose. The one she did choose was nearing its end no matter how the end was going to come. > > None of which excuses Ailes or blames her for the demands for sex, of course. When she started her “Barbie Doll” career, she may not have been aware how much “Barbie” and how little Barbara was going to be there. She may have been told she was going to be allowed to do “serious” journalism - and then when she couldn’t - well, she had a contract. Sometimes the devil takes your soul in pieces. And none of us were on the inside. I think that some GOP women are waking up and discovering they’ve been had. The Bush women all are apparently voting for Hillary - they sure aren’t voting for Trump - and they’ve been fairly vocal for them. Carlson said “enough of this shit, if I’m leaving, I’m doing some damage.” If she is smart enough to understand the influence she has had, she is smart enough to understand the impact what she is doing can have - and the timing is maximized for damage to conservatives. Does she care if she ends up not being able to actually sue due to the arbitration clause? Or does she just want to create some news? Don’t know, but I think she’ll “win” either way. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/138 "2016-07-10T17:38:06Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > If you are hired to play a cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal, then you shouldn’t be too surprised if you get treated as a cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal - > it doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t make it deserved, it doesn’t make it appropriate and we should still try to stamp it out —just don’t act surprised about it If her claims are true, then she wasn’t just treated like a “cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal”. She was treated like a piece of property that could be groped, threatened, and discarded if it didn’t subject itself to unwanted sex acts. Is it crazy to think that perhaps Carlson didn’t think she was playing a cheap, vacuous, ditsy sexualized blond in her job at Fox? I mean, it seems like the victim blaming crowd is treating this as a given, but i think this reveals more about how they see her than anything else. Perhaps she thought she saw her image as simply fitting the slick, corporate, antiintellectual Barbie and Ken aesthetic that FoxNews uses to hawk it’s sensationalized and politically slanted wares. What does maintaining this image have to do with opening yourself up to sexual harrassment? Imagine we were talking about a Hooters waitress. Could such a woman sue her employer for sexual harassment citing the very same issues that Carlson did without earning a bunch of “well, what did you expect?!” or “you shouldn’t be surprised”? One would think Carlson would be on surer footing than a Hooters girl, but I actually think if we were talking about the latter, the inappropriateness of pointing fingers at the victim would be clearer. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/139 "2016-07-10T18:02:16Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What can the “should have thought better” mean, if not that she is in the wrong for making the decision? I think anyone going to work for Fox News is making a wrong decision if they want to be considered serious journalists. Is there a problem with thinking that? > [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think a woman ought to be able to take absolutely any legitimate employment opportunity she might choose, and not be subject to sexual harassment and abuse from her employer or colleagues. You disagree? I think so, too. Why would I disagree? But sometimes “ought to” is not the same as the actual reality. It’s unfortunate when it’s so, and we need to work to change this, but it’s not helpful pretending that what “ought to” be true is in fact true in cases where it obviously is not. That doesn’t excuse misogyny – on the contrary, recognizing it is the first step to eradicating it. If Fox News found it difficult to recruit women because they didn’t want to work there, they might have to get serious about promoting workplace standards. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > How do you keep it separate? What does “calling out” consist of, that carries no element of blame? The same way a court of law and a jury would if this goes to trial. In a legal and moral context Fox News is simply a duly constituted corporation required to adhere to the law with respect to workplace standards and sexual harassment. If the claims in Carlson’s lawsuit are accurate, Ailes should be found unequivocally and 100% guilty. Having made such a finding, jury members on a personal level might feel that Fox News was not the kind of place they’d ever want their wives or daughters to work in. That’s all I’m saying. As for “calling out”, I think **Manda JO** put it well in #123. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253/140 "2016-07-10T18:09:15Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > If you are hired to play a cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal, then you shouldn’t be too surprised if you get treated as a cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal - > it doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t make it deserved, it doesn’t make it appropriate and we should still try to stamp it out —just don’t act surprised about it Where does surprise come into this? Why are we subjecting people to judgment regarding whether they are surprised? What is surprise relevant to? The law? Social standards? What? > [@wolfpup](#): > > I think anyone going to work for Fox News is making a wrong decision if they want to be considered serious journalists. Is there a problem with thinking that? There’s no problem with thinking that, but people are allowed to do jobs that you don’t consider “serious.” Failing to be serious is not a violation of any societal, cultural, or legal standard. But it’s irrelevant to the issue of whether someone is being sexually harassed in a way that violates civil or criminal law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welll-looky-here-ex-fox-news-host-gretchen-carlson-sues-network-head-roger-ailes-for-sexual/759253.md?page=8)