# Wellstone Farewell Becomes Political -- Will it backfire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526 "2002-10-30T12:31:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/81 "2002-10-31T22:59:02Z")
\*\*december \*\* so, you’re willing to concede that the first question “was it tasteless” the answer is “to some people, but obviously not to those most personally affected” ?? re: second question: those who seem to be making the most noise are those who also coincidently wouldn’t be likely to vote Dem anyhow. There may be some individuals who will say their vote was swayed by this, but I don’t see any evidence that there’s sufficient numbers of them to sway the election. **Izzy** - sure we’re all allowed our own personal opinions, however, when it comes to making the decision as to how best to run a memorial for some one who died, I’d rather let the remaining family members judge what is best, rather than, say random people on a message board. Also, in your haste to spank **tejote** , you neatly avoid acknowledging that in large public gatherings, **some people** (of all backgrounds and political persuasions), will behave poorly, and that the larger groups with whom they belong shouldn’t be held accountable for the poor behavior of some members. So, we’ll won’t hold the republicans for those folks booing Hilary at the 911 Memorial and ditto for the Dems re the folks booing Trent/Jessie here, fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/82 "2002-10-31T23:12:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \*\*\*[however, when it comes to making the decision as to how best to run a memorial for some one who died, \*\* Ah, but according to this source, the rally was actually planned by the Democratic National Comittee. > [@](#): > > Political operatives at the Democratic National Committee in Washington developed the plan to turn the memorial service for Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone into a political rally, top party sources tell Capitol Hill Blue. > > The party also urged the Wellstone family to ask Vice President Dick Cheney to not attend the service and concocted the excuse that security for the VP would disrupt the event even though Secret Service security was required for former president Bill Clinton, who was invited and who did attend… > > “That was the plan all along and it was one of the reasons we didn’t want Cheney at the event,” says one Democratic political operative who spoke only under promise that his name not be used… > > The secret plan was developled at the DNC headquarters in Washington and approved by party chairman Terry McAuliffe, the source said. > > Kahn was then briefed and urged to turn the memorial event into a political rally. Wellstone campaign manager Jeff Blodgett’s apology Wednesday afternoon was also part of the plan, designed to provide party deniability, the sources said. > > “There were two agendas at work,” one source said. “We needed to draw attention to the election. Between the sniper and Iraq, the election has been lost in the news. And then we needed to energize the Democratic base and Wellstone supporters in Minnesota.”… > > Democratic political operatives in Washington congratulated each other Wednesday. > > “Mission accomplished” was the message of the day at the DNC and Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee offices. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this article. However, I find it plausible that a rally was intentionally planned, because: – Union members were bussed in – Cheney was asked not to attend – It _was_ like a rally, according to non-partisan observers, and even some Democrats ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/83 "2002-10-31T23:22:26Z")
And this is **exactly** what I mean by **december** quoting republican lies. You can’t vouch for this for the simple reason that you know that it isn’t true. You don’t tell us who you’re quoting. The RNC perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/84 "2002-10-31T23:24:47Z")
—Why are you stooping to defend it?— It is possible to disagree with false or misleading statements without being accused of “defending it” in all respects. In most other debates, you’d be the first to recognize that. —To repeat–what, there’s some kind of law that prohibits laughing at funerals?— I don’t think there’s been a single memorial service I’ve been to in which I, and most of the other people there, haven’t laughed. The deceased would have had to be a pretty damn boring nobody for people to not laugh sometimes when considering his or her life. Though I wasn’t there, my friends have laughed at actual funerals, very appropriately. It was when the preacher was giving a sermon about the deceased, who was a young girl who was not even marginally a Christian. He asked god to forgive her for the sins that she MAY have committed. MAY have?! No one saw them laugh, apparently, but it was definately worth the laugh and very appropriate: this girl had engaged in more fun and good natured sin than most people do in their whole lifetimes. She would have laughed herself. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/85 "2002-10-31T23:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by_ **december** Ah, but according to this source… Which source is that ? How are we to evaluate your extensive quote, if we have no clue as to whether it was written by Ariel Sharon, Santa Claus, or the head of the American Nazi party ? Where’s the context ? Where’s the copyright ? You haven’t violated fair use and pasted the whole damned article have you ? Please clarify. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/86 "2002-10-31T23:40:45Z")
What a cool game for Halloween, kind of like a snipe hunt. What is **december’s** quote from? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/87 "2002-11-01T00:03:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*What a cool game for Halloween, kind of like a snipe hunt. What is **december’s** quote from? \*\* It’s kind of reminiscent of something I wrote recently, isn’t it? Scary when satire comes to life. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/88 "2002-11-01T00:19:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\* You probably blanked this one out, **december**. But I recall that Hillary Clinton was booed at the funeral for NY Firefighters. A funeral. The republican press called them ‘heroes’ for booing her! \*\* You’ve done some blanking out yourself there. Firefighters (and others) booed Mrs. Clinton at a benefit concert that had a large memorial component. Not a funeral. Also, **december** ’s quote comes from [Capitol Hill Blue](http://chblue.com/). Finding that out took over 4/10’s of a second. These General Questions interludes have been brought to you by Ford. OK, so our equity market cap is smaller than Harley Davidson’s. Leave us alone. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/89 "2002-11-01T01:11:46Z")
I was born and raised in MN and lived 46 years of my life there. I know the culture and the politics. My gut feeling upon hearing that Cheney was not wanted there told me, uh oh… what’s going on? He is, afterall, the President of the Senate. A Minnesotan would have expected his attendance. If he refused to set aside politics and attend, that would be viewed as being extremely rude. Just as rude as the Wellstone’s uninvitation. That, frankly, is NOT the Minnesota _nice_ we’re known for. I’ve attended political rallys and many memorial services in MN. The two are never combined out of respect and decency. It is unseemly at a memorial service that any politician _smiles and waves at the public_ attending a memorial service (like the Clintons and others). It’s just as unseemly to rally a “get out the vote” that Wellstone’s son did. A well-bred Minnesotan would shudder (or groan) at such behaviour. I’ve also met Jesse Ventura and had a chance to discuss politics, etc., with him back in '96. I’m a libertarian and he’s an independent so our views do differ, but Ventura is a straight shooting honourable man and “politics as usual” disgusts him as much as it does me. I strongly believe **Tejota** that Jesse’s not running again because, after 4 years of Governor, he’s had his fill of “politics as usual” and can’t stomach any more of it right now. I respect him for sticking his neck out and trying to make a change. I don’t know how other Minnesotans are going to react at the polls, **December**. Someone else mentioned that the vast middle voters could effect the election. I’ll predict that either they’ll simply stay home and not vote (out of disgust for politics) or a third party candidate will reap more support. It was the latter that elected Jesse Ventura. **manhattan** : Don’t confuse New Yorkers with Minnesotans, though I have to admit I haven’t check the stats on how many transplants now live in MN. Just as a side comment, I’m wondering who paid for the arena’s rental. I highly doubt the Wellstone’s or the MN Democratic Party paid for it. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/90 "2002-11-01T01:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > sure we’re all allowed our own personal opinions, however, when it comes to making the decision as to how best to run a memorial for some one who died, I’d rather let the remaining family members judge what is best, rather than, say random people on a message board. Well, we disagree. Obviously, as a practical matter, the family will hold sway, as indeed happened here. But in terms of passing judgement, random people on message boards may also weigh in. Whether and how much this will impact the election remains to be seen. > [@](#): > > Also, in your haste to spank **tejote** , you neatly avoid acknowledging that in large public gatherings, **some people** (of all backgrounds and political persuasions), will behave poorly, and that the larger groups with whom they belong shouldn’t be held accountable for the poor behavior of some members. So, we’ll won’t hold the republicans for those folks booing Hilary at the 911 Memorial and ditto for the Dems re the folks booing Trent/Jessie here, fair enough? To the contrary, in your haste to post a rejoinder, you’ve blatently misrepresented my position. Nowhere in this thread or elsewhere have I suggested that Democrats as a group are to be held responsible for the actions of those who arranged the ceremony or those who booed. Please be more careful about this type of thing in the future. As for Tejota, I’m still waiting to see if he/she can back up his/her claim. But not holding my breath… ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/91 "2002-11-01T01:16:31Z")
I was born and raised in MN and lived 46 years of my life there. I know the culture and the politics. My gut feeling upon hearing that Cheney was not wanted there told me, uh oh… what’s going on? He is, afterall, the President of the Senate. A Minnesotan would have expected his attendance. If he refused to set aside politics and attend, that would be viewed as being extremely rude. Just as rude as the Wellstone’s uninvitation. That, frankly, is NOT the Minnesota _nice_ we’re known for. I’ve attended political rallys and many memorial services in MN. The two are never combined out of respect and decency. It is unseemly at a memorial service that any politician _smiles and waves at the public_ attending a memorial service (like the Clintons and others). It’s just as unseemly to rally a “get out the vote” that Wellstone’s son did. A well-bred Minnesotan would shudder (or groan) at such behaviour. I’ve also met Jesse Ventura and had a chance to discuss politics, etc., with him back in '96. I’m a libertarian and he’s an independent so our views do differ, but Ventura is a straight shooting honourable man and “politics as usual” disgusts him as much as it does me. I strongly believe **Tejota** that Jesse’s not running again because, after 4 years of Governor, he’s had his fill of “politics as usual” and can’t stomach any more of it right now. I respect him for sticking his neck out and trying to make a change. I don’t know how other Minnesotans are going to react at the polls, **December**. Someone else mentioned that the vast middle voters could effect the election. I’ll predict that either they’ll simply stay home and not vote (out of disgust for politics) or a third party candidate will reap more support. It was the latter that elected Jesse Ventura. **manhattan** : Don’t confuse New Yorkers with Minnesotans, though I have to admit I haven’t check the stats on how many transplants now live in MN. Just as a side comment, I’m wondering who paid for the arena’s rental. I highly doubt the Wellstone’s or the MN Democratic Party paid for it. I would expect that Ventura offered the state to cover the expense and if that is so, that explains why he felt hood-winked (among other things). ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/92 "2002-11-01T01:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **manhattan** _ Also, december’s quote comes from Capitol Hill Blue. Finding that out took over 4/10’s of a second. Ah, a scandal sheet, no wonder **december** failed to provide a link. That settled, the question of fair use and copyright infringement remains. The quoted section comprised over 2/3 of the complete text of the article (247 of 369 words), and the work is copyrighted. IANAL, but that seems to be pushing the rules pretty hard. Maybe there’d be a point to such extensive borrowing if there were some relevent and verifiable facts presented in the article, but as unsubstantiated BS, what’s the value to the GD community of having it propagated, with or without proper attribution ? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/93 "2002-11-01T02:02:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo, in regard to Jesse Ventura passing judgment regarding bad taste: \* > \*\*#^&$@#&ing hamsters. […] I think it speaks volumes that a former professional wrestler and XFL announcer found that it was tasteless. \*\* Sure - a bit like a mentally retarded person telling you that you are stupid. Of course, he is entitled to an opinion, but his own impairments call his ability to make such distinctions into question. And my statement about speaking ill of the dead wasn’t so much of a crack, but an observation of the hypocrisy of condemning people for being disrespectful at a funeral and then calling the deceased an asshole. **december** , you keep calling Howard Kurtz a Democrat. He’s a CNN commentator and author. How do you know that he is a registered democrat? Does being a Democrat make him Correct? Is that why you keep pointing to his opinion as if it settles the matter? And if he is a democrat, why are you so surprised that he holds a view counter to that of many other democrats? Oh yeah, you are a conservative. He is also the author of _Spin Cycle: Inside the Clinton Propaganda Machine_ (Touchstone Books, 1998). Come on, democrats! Let’s go revoke this guy’s membership card - he speaks for us all! One last note - Ventura: “I ain’t got time to bleed, but I have plenty of time to whine!” ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/94 "2002-11-01T02:43:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*You’ve done some blanking out yourself there. > > Firefighters (and others) booed Mrs. Clinton at a benefit concert that had a large memorial component. Not a funeral. Sorry, I misspoke, it was not a funeral, and neither was the farewell for Wellstone. The Wellstone funeral was private, and it was on monday. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/95 "2002-11-01T02:45:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian \ ***december** , you keep calling Howard Kurtz a Democrat. He’s a CNN commentator and author. How do you know that he is a registered democrat? I know he’s a Democrat because that fact has been publicly reported. His being a Democrat is a counter-example to disprove the assertion that only Republicans had serious criticisms with the ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/96 "2002-11-01T02:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Edlyn \* > \*\*I was born and raised in MN and lived 46 years of my life there. I know the culture and the politics. > > My gut feeling upon hearing that Cheney was not wanted there told me, uh oh… what’s going on? He is, afterall, the President of the Senate. A Minnesotan would have expected his attendance. If he refused to set aside politics and attend, that would be viewed as being extremely rude. Actually, it turns out they didn’t disinvite Cheney, they just disinvited the secret service protections that he required. That is, they objected to having everyone who attended go through a metal detector, so he stayed home. Somehow, aparently that little fact got left out of the headlines. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/97 "2002-11-01T04:09:01Z")
You know, now that I think about it, I wonder why John McCain didn’t go on behalf of the Pubbies? He is quite well respected as a man much like Wellstone, who has strongly partisan views and yet has the decency and open friendliness that were Wellstone’s most valued characteristics. Clearly he would have got a much better reception than Trent Lott. Surely this must have occured to somebody? There couldn’t have been a better representative, and it seems to me that I have heard more than once that the two men were mutually friendly, above and beyond the traditional courtliness of Senators. So why Trent Lott and not John McCain? ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/98 "2002-11-01T04:24:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*You know, now that I think about it, I wonder why John McCain didn’t go on behalf of the Pubbies? \*\* McCain was stumping for Mitt Romney in Massachusetts and promoting his book on Tuesday. Wednesday, he was helping out John Sununu in New Hampshire and then he was off to Maine. MA and NH have some important races this year and McCain appeals to centrist voters. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/99 "2002-11-01T11:15:27Z")
Elucidator wrote: > [@](#): > > Lib, you’re full of beans on this one. It was the people themselves who were full of partisan spirit, they brought it with them, it wasn’t trucked in, it was already there. So the devil made them do it? Maybe at the next memorial service, it will be okay if a spontaneous sexual orgy breaks out since we can’t expect people to exercise any self-control. * * * Duck wrote: > [@](#): > > Oh, for heaven’s sake. Listen to yourself piously preaching, will ya? Nobody sacrificed any honor or goodwill, nobody proved themselves to be “cheap trailer park trash”. Kahn got carried away with his speechifying, nature took its course, and you sound hysterical. Go take a pill or lie down or something. I think you’re confused. The hysteria came from the pep rally. It was they who needed sedatives. * * * Mojo wrote: > [@](#): > > Hentor the Barbarian asked why Ventura is the measuring stick for decorum- I’d say that it speaks volumes that a former professional wrestler and XFL announcer thinks that this is in bad taste. And I say that it speaks volumes that a debator would attempt to poison the well. * * * JDM wrote [about Mojo’s poison well fallacy]: > [@](#): > > You know, I completely disagree with your position, but I have to say that that is one of the best responses I have ever seen on the SDMB. You must _really_ love the argument that Clinton’s immorality implies that his accomplishments were moot. * * * Tejota wrote: > [@](#): > > One thing you can count on though. Republicans will lie and spin, and December will read their talking points and quote them on this board I am not a Republican. And neither is the Minnessota Governor. * * * Apos wrote: > [@](#): > > It is possible to disagree with false or misleading statements without being accused of “defending it” in all respects. In most other debates, you’d be the first to recognize that. In this one, too, were that the case. But in my Pit thread, I cited six articles from the _Star Tribune_ that indicated that everyone from the governor to news reporters took away the same feeling of disgust and dismay. Minneapolitans were not flooding WCCO-TV’s switchboard because someone had misled them. They were calling because of what they were seeing live. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526/100 "2002-11-01T14:48:27Z")
These things are also vey simple. Apparently the family wanted the funeral to be political in nature. We may assume that these sons loved their father, and made this choice on purpose to honor him, perpetuate his work, and do their best to make sure it continued. That is their decision, and it seems a pretty normal and appropriate one to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wellstone-farewell-becomes-political-will-it-backfire/134526.md?page=6)