# We're all pacifists, aren't we? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864 "2007-11-10T03:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/21 "2007-11-10T11:13:13Z")
Violence is never necessary. I’m a pacifist (and no, **mswas** , it’s got jack to do with not killing for food)., and there’s nothing that would make me kill another human being. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/22 "2007-11-10T13:00:40Z")
I am most certainly not a pacifist. I find pacifism to be a silly opinion held by silly, well-fed rich people. Why not explain to poor oppressed people that war is always bad and they need to suffer peacefully? ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/23 "2007-11-10T13:36:46Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Why not explain to poor oppressed people that war is always bad and they need to suffer peacefully? [/QUOTE] It worked for Ghandi. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/24 "2007-11-10T13:51:04Z")
[QUOTE=SSG Schwartz] … I cannot speak for all Soldiers, but I personally do not understand how a Soldier could pray for peace. …SSG Schwartz [/QUOTE] Wow, that’s bizarre. As far as I know, all the soldiers I served with were doing it to serve their country, travel, earn some money and a college bill, learn a trade, support their families, learn to discipline themselves, and so on. You make them all sound bloodthirsty and well, like the evil, amoral monsters that posters like Der Trihs hope get killed. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/25 "2007-11-10T14:10:40Z")
[QUOTE=Eolbo] It worked for Ghandi. [/QUOTE] Ghandi was not a pacifist. He rejected pacifism. Instead he struggled against injustice. He provoked violence. If nonviolent looked like a loosing game, he most likely would have tried something else. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/26 "2007-11-10T15:22:39Z")
[QUOTE=Eolbo] It worked for Ghandi. [/QUOTE] Gandhi was also leading a nation of half a billion people against the rule of a crumbling empire with little stomach for violence. He’s the exception, not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/27 "2007-11-10T15:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Violence is never necessary. I’m a pacifist (and no, **mswas** , it’s got jack to do with not killing for food)., and there’s nothing that would make me kill another human being. [/QUOTE] And yet your standard of living is bought in blood with your tax money. I would love to hear your feelings on pacifism here on Arpanet. Do you own property? What would you do if a bunch of crackheads decided to move into your house and turn it into a crackhouse. How would you deal with that, pacifistically of course. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/28 "2007-11-10T15:34:26Z")
[QUOTE=Gala Matrix Fire] Wow, that’s bizarre. As far as I know, all the soldiers I served with were doing it to serve their country, travel, earn some money and a college bill, learn a trade, support their families, learn to discipline themselves, and so on. You make them all sound bloodthirsty and well, like the evil, amoral monsters that posters like Der Trihs hope get killed. [/QUOTE] Don’t mind Schwartz. In my military experience only REMFs said things like he said. And nobody pays attention to REMFs. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/29 "2007-11-10T15:51:10Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Don’t mind Schwartz. In my military experience only REMFs said things like he said. And nobody pays attention to REMFs. [/QUOTE] What’s an REMF? 'Cause I’m minding. I’m minding a lot. I really respected him before this, but the notion that he’d prefer tens of thousands of people die to him flipping burgers has me more than a bit discombobulated. I guess my naivety is being stripped away, because I really only thought sociopaths thought like that, and that, like oncologists and child abuse social workers, most soldiers prayed for industry wide unemployment, at least in theory. That thought is what kept me from agreeing with **Der Thris** on the immorality and evilness of individuals in the armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/30 "2007-11-10T15:58:14Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] It requires land ownership. Land ownership is the root of territoriality. To grow food you have to make a plan for the land. [snip] [/QUOTE] This is completely incorrect. Collective land ownership existed long before agriculture. Hunting and gathering tribes are more than willing to obliterate each other in shockingly cruel ways to claim each other’s resources. Tterritoriality, in fact, long predates humankind, much less agriculture. In fact, agriculture, if anything, reduced territoriality, as humans could now survive best in close proximity working the land indepdnantly, and required less land to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/31 "2007-11-10T16:03:27Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] What’s an REMF? [/QUOTE] > **[Urban Dictionary: REMF](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=REMF)** > > REMF: Stands for = Rear Eschelon Mother Fuckers (British) ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/32 "2007-11-10T16:05:50Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] What’s an REMF? [/QUOTE] A rear-echelon motherfucker. Someone who dwells well behind where the fighting is occurring. I wonder if SSG Schwartz expressed himself the way he meant to. He’s a recruiter, right? I’m imagining a scene like this: Prospective Recruit: “I’m pretty handy with a rifle, been shooting since I was born, and I’ve been captain of every team I’ve been on: soccer, football, baseball, you name it. I want to serve my country and earn some money for college. I have to admit, I’d rather we weren’t at war in Iraq and I sure hope we don’t bomb Iran.” SSG Schwartz: “Get out of my office.” ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/33 "2007-11-10T16:17:45Z")
[QUOTE=Gala Matrix Fire] A rear-echelon motherfucker. Someone who dwells well behind where the fighting is occurring. [/QUOTE] It is important to remember that most rear echelon soldiers are just as valuable and respected by front line troops. It takes a special kind of asshole to qualify for the label REMF. REMF is not applied to all rear echelon troops, just the special ones. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/34 "2007-11-10T16:39:12Z")
[QUOTE=Eolbo] It worked for Ghandi. [/QUOTE] But Ghandi taught people, not to suffer peacefully, but to **resist** nonviolently. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/35 "2007-11-10T16:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But Ghandi taught people, not to suffer peacefully, but to **resist** nonviolently. [/QUOTE] Which, IMHO, falls under the definition of pacifist. Note that the definition includes what it’s not (war or violence) but not exactly what it is. But I think nonviolent resistance is exactly it. I think that Gandhi was indeed a pacifist, although he himself protested he was not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/36 "2007-11-10T17:19:43Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] And yet your standard of living is bought in blood with your tax money. [/QUOTE] Ehh? [QUOTE=mswas] I would love to hear your feelings on pacifism here on Arpanet. [/QUOTE] If this is a reference to the military origins of the WWW, that’s a bizarre _non sequitur_. I didn’t build the darn thing. [QUOTE=mswas] Do you own property? [/QUOTE] Yes [QUOTE=mswas] What would you do if a bunch of crackheads decided to move into your house and turn it into a crackhouse. How would you deal with that, pacifistically of course. [/QUOTE] I’d call the police. I know where this is going - violence at one remove is still violence, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. I’m afraid I don’t care. My ethos doesn’t say I magically wish there was no violence, just that I, personally and directly, will not practice it against my fellow man. That’s hypocritical in your view, since I’m willing to have others practice it on my behalf. I don’t care, as long as it’s not me. **Paul in Saudi** - I’ve been an oppressed person, didn’t change my methods. Resisting nonviolently is still pacifist. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/37 "2007-11-10T20:14:54Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] I know where this is going - violence at one remove is still violence, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. I’m afraid I don’t care. My ethos doesn’t say I magically wish there was no violence, just that I, personally and directly, will not practice it against my fellow man. That’s hypocritical in your view, since I’m willing to have others practice it on my behalf. I don’t care, as long as it’s not me. [/QUOTE] By that logic, Hitler was a pacifist. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/38 "2007-11-10T20:21:03Z")
[QUOTE=Eolbo] It worked for Ghandi. [/QUOTE] Passive resistance has only worked twice in history. Both times it was directed against a democracy. Anyone who tried it against a tyranny was annihilated. Big surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/39 "2007-11-10T20:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] By that logic, Hitler was a pacifist. [/QUOTE] [Foul](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864/40 "2007-11-10T20:43:50Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] [Foul](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) [/QUOTE] Mea culpa. Napoleon, then. I don’t think he ever killed anyone, personally. If not, then Lincoln, FDR, LBG or GWB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-all-pacifists-arent-we/425864.md?page=3)