# We're an independent country!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 16, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603 "2002-03-16T11:55:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Illuvatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuvatar)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/1 "2002-03-16T11:55:26Z")
How many people do you need to say “We’re an independent country!” before the UN will hold a referendum AND/OR acknowledge it as a separate country. Does the UN require a certain number of other countries to sponsor (acknowledge) the new country? Does the security council need to get involved? Does the Whole UN vote on it.
**WAIT A SEC…** Will the UN actually do this or is it an organisation of delegates that just chat and waste time and money and ignore genocide and suppression?
Like I know they did it for East Timor… but that was only because we had the first Australian government in about 30 years with some foriegn affairs balls. (Although it was probably for election purposes, hmm)
But what about Tibet? Isn’t Australia the only country that recognizes Tibet as an independant occupied nation or something like that? I think that’s why the Dalai Lama likes coming here.
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### Author:  [@Weeks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeks)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2002, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/2 "2002-03-16T12:46:02Z")
easy tiger!
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2002, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/3 "2002-03-16T13:11:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Illuvatar \*
> \*\*How many people do you need to say “We’re an independent country!” before the UN will hold a referendum AND/OR acknowledge it as a separate country. Does the UN require a certain number of other countries to sponsor (acknowledge) the new country? Does the security council need to get involved? Does the Whole UN vote on it.
>
> **WAIT A SEC…** Will the UN actually do this or is it an organisation of delegates that just chat and waste time and money and ignore genocide and suppression?
>
> Like I know they did it for East Timor… but that was only because we had the first Australian government in about 30 years with some foriegn affairs balls. (Although it was probably for election purposes, hmm)
>
> But what about Tibet? Isn’t Australia the only country that recognizes Tibet as an independant occupied nation or something like that? I think that’s why the Dalai Lama likes coming here. \*\*
The UN has nothing to do with this, if it happens _peacefully_, which it almost never does. Peacefully resolved domestic matters are not the province of the UN. Actually, I can think of NO entirely peaceful creation of a new country. Maybe a few obscure former colonial islands… Anybody have better info on this?
In practice, the UN doesn’t doesn’t get involved at all unless at least one of the following conditions are met:
1. enough bullets start flying to scare the neighbors into intervention
2. there’s enough economic chaos (ie, refugees) to scare the neighbor into intervention
3. a Great Power (the US) is ticked off about something, and needs the UN as cover to carry out its own policy
4. the opposition group starts targeting the assets of Allies of the status quo government as well as the government itself.
Let’s say that (somehow) managed to get an indepence referendum passed by 100% of the local population. The Canadian government simply ignored it, or ruled it invalid for some reason or another. And everyone continued to shout at each other, and more referendums were voted on, passed and ignored, but nobody started shooting or blowing things up. The UN would not TOUCH something like this, anywhere in the world.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/4 "2002-03-16T13:13:23Z")
Add the word “Quebec” before “(somehow)” and the post might make more sense.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/5 "2002-03-16T14:21:46Z")
You don’t need the UN you just need another nation to acknowlege it. It helps if you are able to defend it but if your not attacked then it really doesn’t matter.
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### Author:  [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/6 "2002-03-16T15:52:39Z")
As usual, The Master has already touched on this subject:
[http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_300.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_300.html)
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### Author:  [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/7 "2002-03-18T16:57:03Z")
“I can think of NO entirely peaceful creation of a new country.”
Czechoslovakia’s post-communist division into the Czech Republic and Slovakia?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/8 "2002-03-18T17:47:03Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by yojimboguy \*
> \*\*Actually, I can think of NO entirely peaceful creation of a new country. \*\*
Well, Canada’s independence was peaceful.
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/9 "2002-03-18T20:01:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by yojimboguy \*
> Actually, I can think of NO entirely peaceful creation of a new country. Maybe a few obscure former colonial islands… Anybody have better info on this?
Hmmm, being nitpicky …
Thirteen colonies of England fought a war and became thirteen independent countries. They attempted to stay together under the Articles of Confederation.
However, that confederation was doomed to failure. A Constitutional Convention several years later brought about a change where those thirteen independent countries became one country, by peaceful means.
That country still exists today.
The United States of America.
A country, _strictly speaking_, created by peaceful means.
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### Author:  [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2002, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/10 "2002-03-18T22:49:52Z")
here’s an interesting country ( i learnt about it right here at the SDMB ).
[www.sealandgov.com](http://www.sealandgov.com)
from their faqs:
"
Has the Principality of Sealand been recognized by any other nations?
Yes. Sealand has now maintained its independence for over 30 years, and although no other nation has formally exchanged ambassadors or signed any treaties with Sealand, several other nations have shown Sealand various levels of recognition. Most notably, a British court has fully vindicated Sealand’s claim to independence by ruling that British authorities have no jurisdiction in Sealand, and Germany once sent a diplomat to negotiate directly with the Prince of Sealand for the release of a German criminal being held in a Sealand prison.
"
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82811&highlight=sealand](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82811&highlight=sealand)
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### Author:  [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/11 "2002-03-19T02:27:44Z")
**yojimboguy** said:
> [@](#):
>
> Actually, I can think of NO entirely peaceful creation of a new country. Maybe a few obscure former colonial islands… Anybody have better info on this?
and **Duckster** cited America as an example.
But obviously the original conquest of America began with war against the native “indians”. So it didn’t begin peacefully.
So the question is:
When does a country begin?
The way I see it, we got three options:
- when it becomes a self-declared legal entity (like America)
- when all other countries recognise it as a legal entity so it becomes a de facto state. For example: is the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus a country when there’s only one country in the world who recognises them (Turkey)?
- when it is a country as a factual entity (like America was before the Europeans arrived)
But, anyway, the dictionary defines “country” as:
a region; a state; a nation; rural districts as distinct from town; land of birth or citizenship
so not much help there…
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### Author:  [@Lockz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lockz)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/12 "2002-03-19T05:18:27Z")
**Captain Amazing** mentioned Canada, but as far as I know, wouldn’t most of the British Commonwealth be included in this? Places like Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. all separated peacefully from Great Britain through acts such as the Statue of Westminister (1932 IIRC), and for Canada the British North America Act of 1982 (also IIRC).
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### Author:  [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/13 "2002-03-19T05:30:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lockz \*
> \*\ ***Captain Amazing** mentioned Canada, but as far as I know, wouldn’t most of the British Commonwealth be included in this? Places like Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. all separated peacefully from Great Britain through acts such as the Statue of Westminister (1932 IIRC), and for Canada the British North America Act of 1982 (also IIRC). \*\*
Yeah, but these countries aren’t exactly “independent”. The Queen is still Australia’s Head of State, as she is for most (all?) Commonwealth countries. So although we are “countries”, we aren’t exactly “independent”.
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### Author:  [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/14 "2002-03-19T05:51:02Z")
Slovenia’s independence was fairly peaceful. Remarkably peaceful, in fact, by local standards.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/15 "2002-03-19T06:48:17Z")
IIRC, the Ukraine had a UN seat along side of the USSR. It was one of the arguements they used to claim sovereignity and independence during the break up of the Soviet Union. Also the CIS split off into Khazakstan, Uzbekistan and a couple of other sovereign nations at that time.
Keeping in mind that this is a GQ, just trying to _introduce_ two cases.
Taiwan is facing this issue, but they are a pretty special situation. They claim(ed) to be the legitimate government of all of China and Mongolia. They held a UN seat and were recognized as a sovereign nation by all of the Western powers. They lost the UN seat, and have gradually lost official diplomatic recognition as a country by those same major western powers (for example, the US established formal diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of China in 1979). Taiwan has full diplomatic relations now with approximately 30 nations, ( [I hope this link works](http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/yearbook/chpt09.htm) )
Further complicating matters is that the People’s Republic of China, also claims sovereignity over Taiwan. The PRC has a UN security council seat, and full diplomatic relations with all of the major players. China reserves the right to “retake” Taiwan by force if Taiwan unilaterally declares independence. Taiwan still officially claims China, but this has been significantly downplayed for approximately the past 5 years. China also will not recognize any country that recognizes Taiwan, and IIRC vice versa.
So, is Taiwan an independent country? dunno
There have been other threads on Tibet. What can generally be agreed upon is that Tibet was an independent country and rival to Tang Dynasty China (618-907 ad). Both Tibet and China became part of the Yuan dynasty (1279-1368), eg this was the Mongols who conquored China and Tibet and much of the world. There was some sort of Chinese presence, although the extent is disputed by both sides, through the end of the Qing Dynasty (1911). Tibetans were also the spritual advisors to the emperers from the Yuan Dynasy onwards. From 1911 to 1950, Tibet had de facto and perhaps de jeure independence. China re-established control over Tibet by force starting in 1950. Australia AFAIK did not ever have full diplomatic relations with Tibet. In fact, Australia established full diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of China in 1972. Part of Tibet’s difficulty in making the de jeure arguement is a lack of full diplomatic ties with other countries during the 1911-1950 period. I remember Ireland raised the case of Tibet at the UNin the early 1950s, but I do not believe that they had full diplomatic ties with Tibet.
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### Author:  [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/16 "2002-03-19T06:57:24Z")
[The Hutt River Province](http://www.wps.com.au/hutriver/hut1.htm) is an “independent state” in Western Australia. It’s tolerated by the Australian Government, possibly because they don’t take it very seriously.
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### Author:  [@Mersavets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mersavets)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/17 "2002-03-19T07:40:39Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beastal \*
> \*\*
>
> Yeah, but these countries aren’t exactly “independent”. The Queen is still Australia’s Head of State, as she is for most (all?) Commonwealth countries. So although we are “countries”, we aren’t exactly “independent”. \*\*
You’re not serious are you? I can’t think of any internationally accepted body or reputable, informed person who would dispute Australian sovereignty and independence (in this way).
Australia has a pretty bloody history, especially in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, but Federation was achieved completely peacefully, albeit with much bitchiness between the colonies/states.
There is a view, which I believe accurate to a large extent, that we have given up too much of our independence to the United States. However, nobody would characterise this as the official status either.
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2002, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/18 "2002-03-19T18:21:30Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mersavets \*
> You’re not serious are you? I can’t think of any internationally accepted body or reputable, informed person who would dispute Australian sovereignty and independence (in this way).
The rest of the world acknowledges Australia as an independent country, even though the Queen of Australia is not a citizen of that country.
For me, the problem with Australian sovereignty and independence lies within Australia’s borders.
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### Author:  [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/19 "2002-03-20T02:07:48Z")
The Vatican is another nation that was created peacefully. It became independent with the signing of the Lateran Treaty in 1929.
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### Author:  [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2002, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-an-independent-country/98603/20 "2002-03-20T12:21:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mersavets \*
> \*\*
>
> You’re not serious are you? I can’t think of any internationally accepted body or reputable, informed person who would dispute Australian sovereignty and independence (in this way).
>
> Australia has a pretty bloody history, especially in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, but Federation was achieved completely peacefully, albeit with much bitchiness between the colonies/states.
>
> There is a view, which I believe accurate to a large extent, that we have given up too much of our independence to the United States. However, nobody would characterise this as the official status either. \*\*
Eh?
The Queen still sits atop the Australian hierarchy. She has the power, via the Governor-General, to dismiss the acting Prime Minister. Does it sound like Australia is an independent country when a citizen of Britain has the power to dismiss our democratically elected leader?
This Aussie says “nay”.
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