# Were "ancient times" as violent as we think? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 6, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-ancient-times-as-violent-as-we-think/649526 "2013-02-06T23:02:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-ancient-times-as-violent-as-we-think/649526/22 "2013-02-08T11:43:57Z")
An anthropologist who written quite a bit on the high levels of death by violence in the past is Lawrence Keeley (who is cited in the paper I liked to). His work isn’t available free online to link to, but here are some summaries of his work: > [@](#): > > Perhaps the most interesting and important result from the first scientific surveys of this body of evidence is the conclusion that deaths due to warfare have declined since the prehistoric era, and not by just a little bit. Lawrence Keeley has estimated that a typical tribe or chiefdom lost about 0.5% of its population each year, on average, due directly to warfare. In a 400-person tribe, that would mean an average loss of two persons per year. Given that more than 75% of bands, tribes, and chiefdoms were engaged in warfare of one sort or another at least once every five years, and more than 50% at least once a year, this rate may well be an underestimate. [http://tqe.quaker.org/2007/TQE159-EN-War.html](http://tqe.quaker.org/2007/TQE159-EN-War.html) > [@](#): > > Building on much fascinating archeological and historical research and offering an astute comparison of warfare in civilized and prehistoric societies, from modern European states to the Plains Indians of North America, War Before Civilization convincingly demonstrates that prehistoric warfare was in fact more deadly, more frequent, and more ruthless than modern war. > [@](#): > > homicide rate of prehistoric Illinois villagers may have exceeded that of the modern United States by some 70 times > **[Amazon.com: War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage:...](https://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126)** > > Amazon.com: War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage: 9780195119121: Keeley, Lawrence H.: Books > [@](#): > > Keeley’s charts of relative mobilization rates and casualty rates among tribes and modern nations are fascinating. He suggests that the terrible Twentieth Century wars would have had a death-rate twenty times higher “if the world’s population were still organized into bands, tribes, and chiefdoms”: the typical tribal combat casualty rate of .5 percent per year, during the course of the century would translate to “more than 2 billion war deaths”. [http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Keeley/War-Before-Civilization.html](http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Keeley/War-Before-Civilization.html) ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-ancient-times-as-violent-as-we-think/649526/23 "2013-02-08T16:15:41Z")
A quick note, the 17th century is not what occurs to me as ancient times and every thing xited here simply talks about violence occurring - nothing at all showing comparable modern times. 60% of the male population of Serbia died in WWI. I have not said that "ancient times’ were not violent - I’m looking for something that says they were “a lot more violent” than modern times. What I questioned in fact was the premise put forth that it is common knowledge that we all accept that ancient times were a lot more violent. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-ancient-times-as-violent-as-we-think/649526/24 "2013-02-08T17:46:43Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > I have not said that "ancient times’ were not violent - I’m looking for something that says they were “a lot more violent” than modern times. This didn’t do it for you? > [@](#): > > homicide rate of prehistoric Illinois villagers may have exceeded that of the modern United States by some 70 times > [@FrankJBN](#): > > 60% of the male population of Serbia died in WWI. As I understand it, one of the points anthropologists are emphasizing is that, although bloody, modern wars _end_ sooner or later. The _overall_ death rate across time is therefore lower – much lower – than it used to be, when lethal violence was the normal order of the day, century after century. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-ancient-times-as-violent-as-we-think/649526/25 "2013-02-08T18:28:33Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > This didn’t do it for you? apparently this is very vague too > [@](#): > > War Before Civilization convincingly demonstrates that prehistoric warfare was in fact more deadly, more frequent, and more ruthless than modern war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-ancient-times-as-violent-as-we-think/649526.md?page=1)