# Were/are casino operations run by the mob honest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725 "2015-08-13T10:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AllShookDown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d9b06d/32.png) [@AllShookDown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllShookDown)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/21 "2015-08-18T01:48:28Z")
Sorry. It’s Amazon Prime rather than Netflix. > **[Watch The Real Story Season 2 | Prime Video](https://www.amazon.com/The-Real-Story-Season-2/dp/B0094PM23K)** > > Discover the true stories that inspired some of pop culture's most iconic heroes and villains. Season 2, episode 4. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/22 "2015-08-18T02:19:30Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Useless trivia - the kid who complained that Tiffany had won without even trying went on to be eaten by the shark in “Jaws 2”. And became a Bad News Bear > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The problem with claims like that is that they generally come from the mobsters themselves, and these are not exactly the most reliable people in the world even when their claims are not as blatantly self-serving as this one. (Ditto for the even more dubious claims that Lansky and other mobsters were active in opposing the Nazis.) Lansky and some other mobsters were Jewish. Do you really think the claims are dubious? And Lucky Luciano helped against the Italian Fascists in the Italy campaign for some favors in return, capiche? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/23 "2015-08-18T02:48:14Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Useless trivia - the kid who complained that Tiffany had won without even trying went on to be eaten by the shark in “Jaws 2”. As well he should! Ah, Jill St John and her coin slot! Stopped this 17-yr-old’s heart, it did. Still does. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/24 "2015-08-18T13:16:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > True. But the main reason for the big families to run the casinos was to cheat the IRS and to launder money from their other operations, not to fleece the gamblers. Those functions worked better if the house was clean. From what I read most of the crooked games happened because local guys got greedy and went against the big boss to make their own slice bigger. Lansky was a smart guy and knew the odds were in his favor as long as gamblers kept showing up. Whatever the “main reason” was, these were people who were into squeezing all the money they could out of everything. For the most part, the types of enterprises that these people engaged in were not based on long term considerations of the type you describe. And as for gambling specifically, Dutch Schultz is known to have [fixed the numbers games that he ran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Schultz#The_Numbers_Game). Perhaps Lansky was different. But perhaps he wasn’t. > [@madsircool](#): > > Lansky and some other mobsters were Jewish. Do you really think the claims are dubious? Extremely dubious. These people were Jewish and were probably not big fans of the Nazis. But their lives were based on an unrelenting focus on themselves and their own personal interests, and not on sacrificing anything for the larger community. In later years, some of these guys were interested in rehabilitating their images a bit, and it helped for them to present themselves as having stood up for the Jewish community. I doubt it. > [@](#): > > And Lucky Luciano helped against the Italian Fascists in the Italy campaign for some favors in return, capiche? That’s different. He made a deal and got something for himself in exchange for his services. ---
**Author:** ![Toy\_varen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Toy\_varen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toy_varen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/25 "2015-08-18T13:19:57Z")
In general, all casino games favor the house, so there is no need for the owners, mob or otherwise, to cheat the players. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/26 "2015-08-18T15:07:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Whatever the “main reason” was, these were people who were into squeezing all the money they could out of everything. > > For the most part, the types of enterprises that these people engaged in were not based on long term considerations of the type you describe. And as for gambling specifically, Dutch Schultz is known to have [fixed the numbers games that he ran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Schultz#The_Numbers_Game). Perhaps Lansky was different. But perhaps he wasn’t.Extremely dubious. The way to maximize money in the casino business is to maximize the number of players. Since players won’t go to a crooked casino, a crooked casino will make less money than an honest one. So dishonest people will run an honest casino if they have competition. The numbers racket was illegal and thus a gangster could monopolize the racket through force. Thus the players had to play with Schultz or not play. Plus having a math genius do an amazing amount of quick math to rig the numbers so the fewest numbers won is an easy to conceal cheat. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/27 "2015-08-18T15:30:45Z")
We may know soon. there is evidence that the Sicilian mafia may return to running casinos in havana. As soon as wealthy Americans return to Cuba, the gambling business will come back. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/28 "2015-08-18T15:35:17Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The way to maximize money in the casino business is to maximize the number of players. Since players won’t go to a crooked casino, a crooked casino will make less money than an honest one. So dishonest people will run an honest casino if they have competition. That’s if you adopt a long-term strategic way of thinking, as opposed to a grab-as-much-money-as-you-can-as-fast-as-you-can approach. Most mobsters became mobsters to begin with because they had the latter mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/29 "2015-08-18T15:36:04Z")
If you find yourself in Vegas anytime soon, the Mob Museum in downtown (it’s about a block away from Fremont, in the old federal building where the Kefauver hearings were held in the '50s) touches on how mob-run casinos worked back in the day. As mentioned above, the casino games themselves were almost universally honest, since a reputation of having dishonest tables would cost the casinos business. The way the mob made their cut (and they didn’t always make much; Bugsy Siegel was supposedly whacked because the Flamingo was costing them too much) was by skimming off the top and funneling those tax-free profits into other enterprises, and by using the wire services out of Nevada to run illegal sports books in other parts of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/30 "2015-08-18T16:19:45Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Perhaps the slot machines “house-take” would be set a little higher. I think the main difference would be with cheaters, today one would be asked to leave, whereas before one would get beat up with baseball bats and buried in a shallow grave somewhere out in the desert. Homicide would only worsen the casino’s legal headaches. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/31 "2015-08-18T18:57:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The way to maximize money in the casino business is to maximize the number of players. Since players won’t go to a crooked casino, a crooked casino will make less money than an honest one. So dishonest people will run an honest casino if they have competition. > The numbers racket was illegal and thus a gangster could monopolize the racket through force. Thus the players had to play with Schultz or not play. Plus having a math genius do an amazing amount of quick math to rig the numbers so the fewest numbers won is an easy to conceal cheat. How could they rig the numbers? It was a 3 number combo garnered from the tra k results and published in the newspaper aaik. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/32 "2015-08-18T19:32:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > How could they rig the numbers? It was a 3 number combo garnered from the tra k results and published in the newspaper aaik. He would place a last minute bet that would alter the final odds, and hence the winning numbers. Berman’s genius was in being able to rapidly compute what the bet amount should be in order to produce the ideal odds for his purposes. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/33 "2015-08-18T20:16:02Z")
The technique of rigging numbers is shown in the movie **Force of Evil.** The numbers were the track handle that day, and evidently there were ways to calculate exactly how much to bet at the last second in order to get a desired result. I think they eventually switched to the amount of shares traded on the NYSE, since that was even harder to game. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/34 "2015-08-19T11:51:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If you find yourself in Vegas anytime soon, the Mob Museum in downtown (it’s about a block away from Fremont, in the old federal building where the Kefauver hearings were held in the '50s) touches on how mob-run casinos worked back in the day. > > As mentioned above, the casino games themselves were almost universally honest, since a reputation of having dishonest tables would cost the casinos business. The way the mob made their cut (and they didn’t always make much; Bugsy Siegel was supposedly whacked because the Flamingo was costing them too much) was by skimming off the top and funneling those tax-free profits into other enterprises, and by using the wire services out of Nevada to run illegal sports books in other parts of the country. I am told (anecdotal) that Indian-run casinos have a very poor payout on slots and table games-are they free to change their payouts at whim? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/35 "2015-08-19T12:18:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I am told (anecdotal) that Indian-run casinos have a very poor payout on slots and table games-are they free to change their payouts at whim? I was curious, so I went poking around on google. What I found was that the National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC) does not enforce any minimum payout. However, sometimes the agreements between the states and tribes will enforce a minimum payout. So it varies. But apparently many tribes are free to set their payouts however they like to maximize their profits. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/36 "2015-08-19T12:23:23Z")
I wonder if it’s different at a NA casino vs Vegas because the NA casino is the only game in town in its location. At Vegas, there’s plenty of competition so payouts need to be high enough to keep folks from flocking to another joint. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725/37 "2015-08-19T14:08:37Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I am told (anecdotal) that Indian-run casinos have a very poor payout on slots and table games-are they free to change their payouts at whim? Not in California. The agreements with the state out here set minimum payback percentages on all slots. I can’t search for that material from work, but it was widely publicized when the casinos tried to expand operations a few years back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-are-casino-operations-run-by-the-mob-honest/727725.md?page=1)