# Were dead Confederates US citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213 "2011-10-01T00:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kilmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kilmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilmore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/1 "2011-10-01T00:55:23Z")
Were the thousands of Confederates killed by direct military action during the American Civil War still considered citizens of the United States of America? And was the Union Army justified in killing them without due process according to the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/2 "2011-10-01T01:07:31Z")
Whatever the legal niceties, it seems that dead Confederates were \*treated \*as citizens of the CSA, not the USA. When the final crew of the _CSS Hunley_ were finally interred in 2004 (the sub not being raised until the 21st Century) they were buried with _Confederate_ military honors, and it’s the stars and bars that are on their graves, not the union flag, which would seem to indicate dead Confederates are _still_ considered Confederates and not Union. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/3 "2011-10-01T01:25:58Z")
> [@Kilmore](#): > > Were the thousands of Confederates killed by direct military action during the American Civil War still considered citizens of the United States of America? And was the Union Army justified in killing them without due process according to the Constitution? The Union position was always that secession was illegal and unconstitutional insurrection against the lawful government of the United States. [Article I](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/), Section 8 of the Constitution provides that among the powers of Congress is the power to “provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions”. The duly passed [Militia Acts of 1792](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792) in turn [provided](http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm): > [@](#): > > That whenever the laws of the United States shall be opposed or the execution thereof obstructed, in any state, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by this act, the same being notified to the President of the United States, by an associate justice or the district judge, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States to call forth the militia of such state to suppress such combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. And if the militia of a state, where such combinations may happen, shall refuse, or be insufficient to suppress the same, it shall be lawful for the President, if the legislature of the United States be not in session, to call forth and employ such numbers of the militia of any other state or states most convenient thereto, as may be necessary, and the use of militia, so to be called forth, may be continued, if necessary, until the expiration of thirty days after the commencement of the ensuing session. So I think the Union’s constitutional position was that the United States was lawfully calling upon troops from the non-seceding states to suppress the insurrection in the seceding states, it clearly being impractical to send Federal marshals to arrest Jefferson Davis _et al._, and the militias of South Carolina, Alabama, Virginia, etc., having refused to suppress the aforesaid insurrection against the United States. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/4 "2011-10-01T01:27:27Z")
Considered by whom? The US government certainly considered them its citizens, the rebellion notwithstanding. The soldiers themselves, and anyone who recognized the CSA, would have considered them CSA citizens. The right to habeas corpus does not apply in rebellions. Article 1, Section 9. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/5 "2011-10-01T01:42:47Z")
And note, too, that ex-Confederate soldiers were granted full military pensions later on. Even their military service was therefore smoothed over. And all COnfederates were permitted to vote and retain full citizenship post-Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/6 "2011-10-01T08:17:57Z")
> [@Kilmore](#): > > And was the Union Army justified in killing them without due process according to the Constitution? Without due process? What are you talking about? They were in armed rebellion against the government of the United States, and started the war at Fort Sumter. What due process should the Union Army have gone through before deciding to return fire? ---
**Author:** ![Kilmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kilmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilmore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/7 "2011-10-01T09:19:58Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Without due process? What are you talking about? They were in armed rebellion against the government of the United States, and started the war at Fort Sumter. What due process should the Union Army have gone through before deciding to return fire? It would obviously be retarded to attempt to serve a subpoena on the field of battle, but I meant in terms of the government sending the troops out to fight and kill the Confederates. As a note, I personally consider the Union victory good, I’m just wondering if it were technically legal. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/8 "2011-10-01T10:47:36Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > And note, too, that ex-Confederate soldiers were granted full military pensions later on. Even their military service was therefore smoothed over. And all COnfederates were permitted to vote and retain full citizenship post-Civil War. Sort of. The United States of America never granted Confederate veterans any kind of pension or recognition of their military service. Several of the former Confederate states did pass laws to provide their veterans with a pension of some kind, but this was not a united effort so Texas, Mississippi and Alabama would have paid their veterans separately. Nor was military service smoothed over. There are plenty of examples of former Confederate soldiers/sailors serving in the U.S. armed forces after the war, but that’s just because the south was generally forgiven for their indiscretion. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/9 "2011-10-01T18:15:23Z")
> [@Kilmore](#): > > It would obviously be retarded to attempt to serve a subpoena on the field of battle, but I meant in terms of the government sending the troops out to fight and kill the Confederates. As a note, I personally consider the Union victory good, I’m just wondering if it were technically legal. Since your OP is a relatively obvious attempt to make commentary upon the recent killing of the al-Qaeda leader who was an American citizen, let’s address the OP in proper context. It has never been unconstitutional to kill a citizen during time of war when that citizen is engaged in war acts against our country. The issue was addressed more than once by courts during WWII. Citizens engaged in acts of armed rebellion against the US would not be entitled to be arrested and tried for their crimes, rather than shot during military conflict. Or, if you wish to think of it this way, when you are engaged in a military action against the government, being shot by the loyal soldiers **is** “due process.” Now, if the soldiers of the United States happen to run across Johnny Reb while Johnny Reb is on leave at home, plowing the family farm, and shoot him without arrest and trial, that might well be a different story. Of course, that’s not what happened to our al-Qaeda American, either. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/10 "2011-10-01T18:40:14Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Since your OP is a relatively obvious attempt to make commentary upon the recent killing of the al-Qaeda leader who was an American citizen, let’s address the OP in proper context. > > … > > Now, if the soldiers of the United States happen to run across Johnny Reb while Johnny Reb is on leave at home, plowing the family farm, and shoot him without arrest and trial, that might well be a different story. Of course, that’s not what happened to our al-Qaeda American, either. A closer parallel might be if the Union had attempted to assassinate Jefferson Davis or other civilian leaders of the confederacy, or perhaps shelled the Confederate White House or Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Kilmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kilmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilmore)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-dead-confederates-us-citizens/598213/11 "2011-10-02T01:07:50Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Since your OP is a relatively obvious attempt to make commentary upon the recent killing of the al-Qaeda leader who was an American citizen, let’s address the OP in proper context. It has never been unconstitutional to kill a citizen during time of war when that citizen is engaged in war acts against our country. The issue was addressed more than once by courts during WWII. Citizens engaged in acts of armed rebellion against the US would not be entitled to be arrested and tried for their crimes, rather than shot during military conflict. > > Or, if you wish to think of it this way, when you are engaged in a military action against the government, being shot by the loyal soldiers **is** “due process.” > > Now, if the soldiers of the United States happen to run across Johnny Reb while Johnny Reb is on leave at home, plowing the family farm, and shoot him without arrest and trial, that might well be a different story. Of course, that’s not what happened to our al-Qaeda American, either. That’s pretty much what I expected actually. Okay, I admit I was inspired by the blasting of the American Al-Q’s in Yemen, as far as I wish to comment on it, I say “nice shot”. But what limits who the government considers “in rebellion” and subject to military action?