# Were Early Cartoons Racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2001, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528 "2001-05-06T08:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/41 "2001-05-08T22:14:49Z")
Baker wrote: > [@](#): > > All the Martians will have to do is blast us with the Iludium Q-37 Explosive Space Modulator! Hey, wait a minute! When I was growing up, it was the Iludium Q- **36** Explosive Space Modulator! Don’t tell me they’ve censored the number “36” from cartoons nowadays, too! ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2001, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/42 "2001-05-08T23:55:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **(“Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarfs” is easily as good as “What’s Opera Doc” and while I’ve never seen it, “Clean Pastures” is supposed to be a fascinating and funny look at early jazz musicians and I’d love to see it)** Anyone who wants to see [“Coal Black”](http://members.fortunecity.com/goopygeer1) and others can do so if you have RealVideo. These cartoons, like many others, are now in the public domain, their copyrights having expired. This page has links to other rarely-seen, public-domain cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/43 "2001-05-09T00:38:45Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jaimest \* > **Come to think of it, I haven’t seen the Three Stooges, Laurel and Hardy, or Abbot and Costello on TV in a long time too. Are those shows insensitive as well? Or just too old?** [The Stooges](http://www.threestooges.com/) are on [AMC.](http://www.amctv.com/) They’ve shown [Abbott & Costello](http://www.abbottandcostello.net/) movies too. [Laurel & Hardy](http://www.laurel-and-hardy.com/) are still out there, but you have to hunt for them. _Sons of the Desert_ is now on DVD. I think it’s just that the films are old and in B&W and with scratchy sound. Avoid the colorized L&H shows if you can. Fortunately, the Stooges are still in B&W. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/44 "2001-05-09T02:18:51Z")
Eutychus said > [@](#): > > Which also begs the question, is there such a thing as a positive stereotype? I am sorry for being a nit, but I can’t stand when people misuse “beg the question.” In may make one “ask teh question”, but begging the question refers to a logical fallacy/cyclical logic. Now back to our regularly scheduled debate. ---
**Author:** ![AwkwardToo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AwkwardToo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AwkwardToo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/45 "2001-05-09T03:54:35Z")
Well, when are they going to pull the Tom and Jerry cartoons where the lower half of a stereotypical ‘black mammy,’ who is the house maid, is portrayed? Porky Pig cartoons have already been censored because I saw one where Farmer Kid Porky is on a runaway train and in a brief flash, it whizzes past what I took to be a scare crow, but was a black man standing by the tracks and almost knocked over by the wind. The next time I saw the episode, that two seconds was edited out. Disney edited out a scene in a Donald Duck cartoon where, frustrated by squirrels Chip and Dale stealing all of his food, he produces a WW2 tripod machine gun and blazes away, naturally hitting everything but them. Most cartoons made fun of everyone, American Indians, Blacks, Whites - especially rich businessmen, political figures and cops, and during WW2, Germans and Japanese. Ever see the ones where they ridiculed groups of White movie stars? They loved to show Talula (SP) Bankhead with boat sized feet, Jerry Lewis with great buck teeth, some fat guy with huge lips, and Al Joleson with huge eyes. They poked fun at cowboys, military people, sailors, senators (rightfully so there), and presidents. The poked fun at Blacks, but Blacks were actually the smallest number of people made fun of!! So, if we want to be really PC, did not Chip and Dale always start trouble for Donald Duck when he was minding his own business? Didn’t they break into his home, his trailer and seal everything not tied down? Isn’t that encouraging criminal activity?! Then Donald, not only with his explosive temper but, if you recall, when he visited penny arcades, he used a coin on a string to turn on the machines, disobeyed rules and usually managed to wreck the place. Goofy. Are the making fun of the ‘mentally challenged’ here? Huey, Dewy and Louie, Donald’s nephews. Remember the early cartoon where Donald first gets to take care of his nephews? They are rude, undisciplined, tear up the house, ignore his orders, wreck the great meal he had prepared for them and make his life miserable. Isn’t this promoting juvenile delinquent behavior? Let us not forget that often they were shown skipping school too! How about those old cartoons with Heckle and Jeckle, the two crows who got into trouble all of the time. They certainly either sounded Black or real Southern Cracker and they went on to have an extensive comic book career! Come to think of it, I’ve not seen them on TV in quite some time, so I guess they were victims of Black stereotyping, or were they? They always won in the end. My advise to people who get offended over minor jokes in cartoons? Get over it! Everyone was made fun of back then and censoring or pulling cartoons because of inoffensive racial stereotypes is discriminatory unless all races and nationalities, including Whites, are pulled also! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/46 "2001-05-09T04:06:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, when are they going to pull the Tom and Jerry cartoons where the lower half of a stereotypical ‘black mammy,’ who is the house maid, is portrayed? Actually, they’ve eliminated most of the “Mammy Two Shoes” appearances by animating new, white legs to replace them. An expensive solution, but apparently they did it. I haven’t seen a cartoon with the two black legs in years. As for your comment on Goofy and the mentally retarded you shoul know that Mort Walker reports in his wonderful book **Backstage at the Strips** that he’s caught a lot of flak on account of Private Zero and the almost-forgotten Private Ozone) for precisely that reason. Gary Larsen reports in **The Prehistory of the Far Side** that he gets letters from Amnesty International criticizing his gags with people in dungeons and on the rack. He asks if Mort Walker gets the same kind of comments for “The Wizard of Id”. And, just so that no cartoon company feels left out, I have to note that Fleischer Studios showed some things that would be thought offensive today – Popeye singing “You’re Sap, Sap, Sap, Mister Jap” in a WWII era cartoon, stereotyped “black” natives in another Popeye cartoon, not to mention he Superman cartoon “Jungle Drums”. Several Japanese stereotypes in Superman cartoons, a lot of “Jewish” gags in Betty Boop cartoons. (Betty has a Jewish Mother!) There’s n end to these. But again, that’s what you expect when these attitudes are common an entrenched. Pointing these out is like shooting fish in a barrel (or whatever the metaphor is). But there’s no need for me to be sanctimonious about it, or to feel morally superior. It’s a product of the times I live in and the times the cartoons were made. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/47 "2001-05-09T05:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > …some fat guy with huge lips… That was probably Edward G. Robinson. Nyah! See? Nyah! ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/48 "2001-05-09T16:06:11Z")
> [@](#): > > They loved to show Talula (SP) Bankhead with boat sized feet, Jerry Lewis with great buck teeth, Isn’t that Greta “I vant to be alone” Garbo with the big feet? I don’t recall ever seeing Jerry Lewis in a WB cartoon–don’t most of them predate his career? Finally, who is the guy with the melon shaped head, long, droopy nose, and little squinty eyes? He’s frequently portrayed as clapping his hands together and giving a little laugh, like “hoo hoo hoo.” This caricature pops in probably dozens of old cartoons, and I have no idea who it’s supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/49 "2001-05-09T17:28:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gr8Kat \* > Finally, who is the guy with the melon shaped head, long, droopy nose, and little squinty eyes? He’s frequently portrayed as clapping his hands together and giving a little laugh, like “hoo hoo hoo.” This caricature pops in probably dozens of old cartoons, and I have no idea who it’s supposed to be. \*\* Got it, his name was Hugh Herbert. Found it at [http://members.aol.com/EOCostello/](http://members.aol.com/EOCostello/) ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2001, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/50 "2001-05-09T18:42:47Z")
All this time, I thought it was Ed Wynn. How come white male gun users aren’t offended by Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/51 "2001-05-10T01:06:40Z")
'Cause Yosemite Sam is the roughest, toughest hombre what ever crossed the Rio Grandie. And I don’t mean Mahatma Ghandie. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/52 "2001-05-10T01:34:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gr8Kat \* > \*\*Got it, his name was Hugh Herbert. Found it at [http://members.aol.com/EOCostello/](http://members.aol.com/EOCostello/) \*\* **Gr8Kat** , An alternate site, which I’ve used for similar questions is [here.](http://www.spumco.com/magazine/eowbcc/eowbcc-index.html#intro) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Rubin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billy_rubin/32/3622_2.png) [@Billy\_Rubin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Rubin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/53 "2001-05-10T04:15:41Z")
I’ve been thinking for several days now, and when the smoke cleared, I came to a somewhat startling conclusion: Humor ain’t fair. I can’t think of a joke or a humorous situation which doesn’t involve a: poking fun at the supposed inferiority of someone’s race/sex/nationality/car/house/trailer/ancestry/whatever, or b: being amused at the misfortune of someone in an uncomfortable situation. If we take out every reference that offends someone, we’ll have lost our humor completely. If we have to narrow down humor to only that which abuses white middle class males, go for it. I’m bigger than being offended by that. Or maybe we could all pay attention to what our kids are watching, not allow them to watch what we don’t want them to, and get a life. Myself, I want to know why Mickey Mouse had a friend who was a dog, and a pet who was a dog. Was Pluto Minney’s illegitimate child by Goofy? is that what is meant by “f\*\*\*'in goofy”? Jus’ wunnerin’ b. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2001, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/54 "2001-05-10T10:30:10Z")
I’m sure there are a lot of “Bloom County” fans here. Do you remember this one? Opus is sitting on a bench at a bus stop with a number of other folks when one guy speaks up: “Ya know, you penguin types offend me” #2 says “Hey… I’ll tell ya what offends me…dirty words, that’s what.” #3"Polish jokes offend me" #1"Sterotypes offend ME" #4"TV SEX OFFENDS ME" #2"LOOK! THAT SIGN IS OFFENSIVE!" #5"I mad that sign and I’m offended!" #3"Frankly sir, you offend me." #1"Well! I’m offended at your offense!" #4"THOSE NUDES OFFEND MY WOMANHOOD!" #2"THOSE GAYS OFFEND MY MANHOOD!" #5"This comic offends my offensiveness" And then, all together they scream:“MY GOSH. LIFE IS OFFENSIVE!!AAIGGH!!” and everyone but Opus runs away screaming. Says Opus “Offensitivity” ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/55 "2001-05-13T10:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Which also begs the question, is there such a thing as a positive stereotype? Of course not. Take the stereotype of the smart Jew. Suppose someone says “I want Dr. Feldman as my doctor because he’s a Jew.” This would seem on its surface to be a positive representation of Jews as smart, accompished people who make skilled physicians, and that is a part of it. But another part of the message in such a statement is that Dr. Feldman’s skill as a doctor does not come from his hard work, long hours of study, devotion to his profession, desire to help people, or any other admirable quality he as a person posesses. The message is that whatever skill he posesses comes from his race, and as such, he really deserves no credit for his accomplishments, or at least he deserves less credit than a Latino, Indian, Irish, Italian, etc. Positive stereotypes attribute positive qualities to the race or ethnicity and not to the individual and as such deny individuals the credit they deserve. Apply the same reasoning to black baskeball players and sprinters, Russian chess players, Irish policemen. I am not equating these things with the depiction of blacks as lazy, or Indians as vicious savages. Clearly, those are worse. But both positive and negative stereotypes have the same basic message, which is that people should be judged based on percieved group characteristics (whether generally accurate or not) and not as individuals. This is always a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/56 "2001-05-13T21:12:24Z")
A few quick declarations: 1. I’m a black male. 2. I’m an amatuer cartoonist with a more-than-passing knowledge of animation and cartoons, of animated characters and their creators, and their various studios. 3. I’m a schoolteacher. 4. I’m thirty. Having made those declarations, I want to make a few pronouncements. 1. Warner Bros.’ Censored 11: Most of them are shoddily done racist entertainment aimed at squarely at White Americans’ basest expectations. Non-blacks are clearly doing the character designs, animation, voices, storylines, dialogue, music and schtick, and are definitely pandering to a 1940s mass audience. 2. Bob Clampett’s **Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves** is putrid. The animation is anything but “gorgeous”, the pace is more choppy and nonsensical than “frenetic”, the “sweep” lasts all of eight minutes and its “incredibly funny” humor is derived almost entirely from typical 1940s slapstick humor, “Amos N Andy” niggerese, World War II barbs and stereotypes both real and imagined. (The recurring dice thing is just another one of Warner’s Bros. weird racial fetishes.) If you laughed once, in 2001, grow up. 3. I disagree somewhat with the posters above who’ve suggested that children shouldn’t see these cartoons. I personally believe it depends on the maturity and intelligence of the child – and where they view it. (Not in public schools.) I don’t think they should view them in the same context as a Roadrunner cartoon, obviously, but I don’t think children should be ‘protected’ from understanding just how flagrant and insidious social attitudes were (and still are) anymore than I needed to be shielded from reading Hellen Bannerman’s _[Little Black Sambo](http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm)_ or Twain’s 213 uses of “nigger” in _Huckleberry Finn._ Some really nice people are racists, as Manda Jo said. I think it’s a good thing fewer and fewer are. 4. I think a TV program that had cartoon historians shedding light on the social attitudes that were prevelant when these (and other) cartoons were made would be a highly informative but ultimately not too entertaining show – which is why it won’t ever get made. Thank you, **Fenris, jab1** for the links. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/57 "2001-05-14T01:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Bob Clampett’s Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves is putrid. The animation is anything but “gorgeous”, the pace is more choppy and nonsensical than “frenetic”, the “sweep” lasts all of eight minutes and its “incredibly funny” humor is derived almost entirely from typical 1940s slapstick humor, “Amos N Andy” niggerese, World War II barbs and stereotypes both real and imagined. (The recurring dice thing is just another one of Warner’s Bros. weird racial fetishes.) If you laughed once, in 2001, grow up. If you go back to my post on this, you’ll see that I agree with the offensiveness of the stereotypes. But I’ll tand by the “gorgeous” and the “frenetic”. The opening and closing shots, the silhuette of the black mother holding her child n a rocking chair in front of the fire, are beautiful. They were probably rotoscoped to within a millimeter of the live actors – but it’s still beautiful. I submit that one man’s “choppy” is another man’s “frenetic”. And what Found funny wasn’t the Amos and Andy stereotypes, but the way Clmpett _moved_ the characters. Racial jokes don’t do damned thing for me. And _that’s_ why I find Coal Black frustrating – it’s a textbook exercise in prime 1940s animation polluted by the most extreme and objectionable stereotypes imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/58 "2001-05-14T06:53:28Z")
I saw a fairly recent cartoon on a Spanish station called ‘De Cabeza’ where every black character had HUGE red lips - they took up about 1/3 of the total facial area. They didn’t seem to be saying or acting in stereotypical ways (though my Spanish isn’t very good, I can only understand about 1/3 of what is being said) but I can’t imagine an English-language cartoon portraying blacks that way today. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/59 "2001-05-14T21:41:02Z")
I just wanted to say that while I thought _Coal Black and the Sebben Dwarves_ was offensive and (putting aside the racist elements) only mildly funny, I have to admit that Coal Black herself was one _hot_ (animated) gal. 😃 She could give Tex Avery’s “Little Red” a run for the money. CB was the only good thing in an otherwise bleagh piece of celluloid. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528/60 "2001-05-14T23:16:40Z")
I am a Black man who happen to have and like big lips; it is said that it is an evolutionary advancement. Those animated lips with small, button noses, narrowed faces, and slurred speech, that’s the problem. It is as if they never saw a Black man before, or have nobody besides Stephen Fetchit pose for them. Geez, when they drew the Japanese as sinister beings, they drew them more or less anatomically correct. They weren’t even close when it comes to drawing Black men, children and Big Women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-early-cartoons-racist/64528.md?page=4)