# Were Harris and Klebold asking for it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2000, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315 "2000-01-21T03:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/1 "2000-01-21T03:49:00Z")
This is a quote which Time Magazine presents as evidence that the social atmosphere at Columbine was not that bad: > [@](#): > > Evan Todd, the 255-lb. defensive lineman who was wounded in the library, describes the climate this way: “Columbine is a clean, good place except for those rejects,” Todd says of Klebold and Harris and their friends. “Most kids didn’t want them there. There were into witchcraft. They were into voodoo dolls. Sure, we teased them. But what do you expect with kids who come to school with weird hairdos and horns on their hats? It’s not just jocks; the whole school’s disgusted with them. They’re a bunch of homos, grabbing each other’s private parts. If you want to get rid of someone, usually you tease ‘em. So the whole school would call them homos, and when they did something sick, we’d tell them, `You’re sick and that’s wrong.’” Which Time Magazine follows up with: > [@](#): > > Others agree that the whole social cruelty angle was overblown… This just in: according to Time magazine, it’s not really cruelty if they were homos. While I agree that the Revenge of the Nerds story may have been blown out of proportion, I am galled and mystified that time magazine printed this quote as evidence of this claim. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/2 "2000-01-21T03:59:00Z")
Since I haven’t seen the article, I can only go by what you’ve said. Presuming that is an accurate representation of the article, I think some author lost his mind somewhere. I also wonder if the author was a jock or other part of the “in” crowd when he was in school. Because if he wasn’t, there is no way in hell he could have written that. “Yeah, they looked different, so they were asking for it.” Well, turn that around. The quickest way to get rid of somebody is _not_ teasing them, but blowing their brains out. And since the jocks and in crowd were different from the trenchcoat crowd, I guess what they did is ok. (Note: No, of course I don’t actually believe that – I’m just taking such idiotic “logic” to its extreme conclusion.) ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/3 "2000-01-21T04:00:00Z")
Man, as it is in High School, so it is in the rest of the country. Most people think people who are ‘into witchcraft’ and ‘homos’ and just generally different in any real way should leave (though most adults won’t tease them, mercifully). Sad but true. Also, there is a lot of anger (obviously) towards these two, who undeniably did something much worse than tease or even beat up a classmate. ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/4 "2000-01-21T04:01:00Z")
David I guess I’m just following you around. Second simul post in 2 minutes 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/5 "2000-01-21T04:07:00Z")
Yeah, I noticed that… (looking over shoulder as I type) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/6 "2000-01-21T04:37:00Z")
Well, in fairness to the author of the Time article (which I have not seen), it could have been simply a clumsy way of indicating the prevailing attitudes at Columbine: “Here is a long and articulated description by some boor of the student attitudes–and, yes, we found those attitudes prevalent, here.” * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/7 "2000-01-21T04:45:00Z")
OK, I’m obviously missing something here, because what that jock said sounds like a resounding affirmation of the social cruelty motivation… I mean really… “Columbine is a clean, good place except for those rejects” “Most kids didn’t want them there.” “Sure, we teased them. But what do you expect with kids who come to school with weird hairdos and horns on their hats? It’s not just jocks; the whole school’s disgusted with them. They’re a bunch of homos,” Oh yes, of course, anyone who acts or dresses differently from you _obviously_ deserves to be ridiculed/taunted. “If you want to get rid of someone, usually you tease 'em.” Bullshit. If you want to victimize someone you tease’em. If you wanted to get rid if them you would have just ignored them, or told them to go away. What kind of an asshole did they interview to get this? The reporter must be some sort of idiot not to see that by that quote he’s just validated the entire social cruelty idea. Sorry for the rant there, but I had to go through 4 years of High School, and I’m not exactly what you’d call a conformist. The sort of attitudes that are represented in that quote are exactly the ones that made my High School years pretty much the worst 4 years of my life, not that I’m bitter or anything… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/8 "2000-01-21T05:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, I’m obviously missing something here, because what that jock said sounds like a resounding affirmation of the social cruelty motivation… In any case, it sure isn’t proof that Klebold and Harris wouldn’t have been motivated by the abuse of jocks. Here’s the article, so you can check out the context: [http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,35870,00.html](http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,35870,00.html) The quote was introduced with, “But things never got out of hand, they say.” But you’ll notice that the quote from the linebacker doesn’t address whether things got out of hand. It describes his rationalization for picking on weirdos, and does not claim that it didn’t happen or that it was not as bad as the media claimed. In fact, the jock suggests that the whole school was involved, not just some groups. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/9 "2000-01-21T07:24:00Z")
In a later issue, TIME printed letters objecting to the “overblown” interpretation. An excerpt: > [@](#): > > One comment in your story that particularly caught my eye was made by Columbine football player Evan Todd. He justified the teasing of the “rejects” by calling them “homos.” The picture he painted reflects the narrow-minded and offensive climate that fills Columbine High. … _To say as others do that “the whole social-cruelty angle was overblown” is ridiculous._ As a senior in high school, I have watched for the past 3 1/2 years as the wrath of social pressure has destroyed the self-confidence and self-worth of dozens of friends and classmates… here’s the URL: [http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,36757,00.html](http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,36757,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/10 "2000-01-21T08:58:00Z")
Well, I remember well the first thing I saw on TV when I turned it on after I came home that day. A classmate was being interviewed, and he was saying, very cooly, how “they were scum.” At that exact moment, I knew EXACTLY why those two idiots did what they did. I certainly don’t condone their actions. But understand them? Oh, yes. I understand them. I had 'em myself. Never acted upon them, but you would not believe how many times I wished a classmate would die for the way I was treated. * * * Yer pal, Satan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/11 "2000-01-21T12:01:00Z")
Well… of course they had be teased, if they were homos and into witchcraft. It’s practically an American duty. How that counts as cruelty, I’ll never know. (We need a sarcastic smiley, I think). Obviously, shooting your tormentors is not the way to handle the situation. It may be that _Time_ didn’t want to be in the position of seming to blame the victims. But they’re way off base for their implication that there was no torment there. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/12 "2000-01-21T12:56:00Z")
If high school’s hamhanded oppression by the pretty, strong, and wealthy can be compared to slavery, those 2 trenchcoat-wearers can be compared to Nat Turner or John Brown. Both reviled at the time for their crimes, they have over time become American heroes symbolizing the struggle for fairness and equality. I shed more tears for the untold thousands of lives twisted into misery by the “caste structure” every school year, than I do a handful of sacrificial lambs taken out in protest. American media and politics natter on about “the children” _ad infinitum_ as if it were the only thing that matters in this country, yet there was an unjust situation that had attention called to it with (quite literally) a fireworks display, and it was swept under the rug in exchange for neverending maudlin coverage of the survivors’ (“Christian only, please”) funeral services and need for grief counseling … So-called “outcasts” nationwide are now under ever greater scrutiny, not as developing adolescents with issues but as head cases and potential murderers (as if they couldn’t be alienated any further). By the way, seeing as how Columbine won the state football championship this season, I would venture to say the “jocks” are firmly back in charge at Columbine High School. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/13 "2000-01-21T13:03:00Z")
Bricker said: > [@](#): > > We need a sarcastic smiley, I think :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/14 "2000-01-21T14:51:00Z")
The ironic thing is that Harris and Klebold weren’t even members of the Trenchcoat Mafia, according to other articles that I have read. The Trenchcoat Mafia, the nonconformist group at Columbine, didn’t like Harris and Klebold either. Even they recognized that these guys weren’t just nonconformists but people with serious problems. The only reason that Harris and Klebold were wearing trenchcoats on the day of the massacre was that it’s the easiest way to hide guns that you’re carrying. Harris and Klebold weren’t actually targeting just popular people. They hated everybody at Columbine and would have been happy if they could have killed everyone in the school. ---
**Author:** ![Jai\_Pey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a4c791/32.png) [@Jai\_Pey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jai_Pey)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/15 "2000-01-21T15:01:00Z")
Probably already discussed, but has anyone seen the materials said to be forthcoming re: videos of these two? Admissions, planning, making a movie, etc? For the record, I can understand too, why they did what they did. I don’t condone it either… but understand (maybe empathize is better) nonetheless. I wasn’t mr. social in high school but I wasn’t reviled either. Sometimes it takes a lot for people to crack, but when they crack they follow it through in a logical way. See “Hunting Humans” by Eliot Leyton, particularly the chapter on Mark Essex. Regards, jai pey ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/16 "2000-01-21T17:56:00Z")
The videos will not be released to the public, probably ever (unless someone leaks them). Some reporters were permitted to watch them and take notes. As far as high school cruelty goes - I myself (like probably many dopers) had a tough time. Probably the worst year of my life was 7th grade, it was a new school, new town, and not only did it take me almost an entire year to make a friend, but the whole time I had people tormenting me. Very uncool. High school was fairly bad too - but I can’t say I had anything like the entire school against me, just a few assholes. None of this has scarred me for life - and I really have very little resentment about it. I ran into the worst of my 7th grade tormentors a couple years ago, and realized I had nothing against at them at all. We spent a couple hours talking, catching up (we never had much in common, but we did have mutual friends). I think its sad that Klebold and Harris did something rash that makes it impossible for them to ever grow out of their situation, and gain a healthier perspective on it. I was upset when those Christians tore up two of the trees that were planted for the victims at Colombine (the two were for Klebold and Harris) - because they were as much victims as anyone. Everyone wants to through a lot of blame around with something like this, either towards the jocks or the media or Doom or satan or whatever - but I don’t particularly. I just think the whole thing is unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2000, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/17 "2000-01-22T06:40:00Z")
Johnny Angel wrote: > [@](#): > > But you’ll notice that the quote from the linebacker Minor nitpick: He wasn’t a linebacker, he was a defensive lineman. (Hey, the NFL conference championships are this weekend. I gotta pay attention to these things.) * * * The truth, as always, is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/18 "2000-01-21T19:02:00Z")
Hey, I was a straight A student and a football/basketball player in highschool and I still got a shitload of flak from the jocks because I was eccentric (9 earrings, rat tail, and [gasp] I wore a tie to school.) I am still battling small minds who do not understand me eccentricity. All you can do is plant your two feet firmly on the earth and wait for it to revolve to you. Being odd is not for the weak of heart, and I have a suspicion that they glorified in being persecuted. They were picking a fight. I am glad those two got weeded out. I live about 4 miles form Columbine and I am thankfull for two less evil souls stalking my little plot of terra firma. ---
**Author:** ![AzRaek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/azraek/32/16739_2.png) [@AzRaek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AzRaek)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/19 "2000-01-22T01:49:00Z")
RTA said By the way, seeing as how Columbine won the state football championship this season, I would venture to say the “jocks” are firmly back in charge at Columbine High School. OOH boy, the coupla people who brought this up were pretty much silenced. “It’s a healing process for the whole school” I’m sure the Drama, Art, Computer, and Special Ed departments ( who don’t get a cut of the admission money) would disagree. Hurray for the privileged few!!! * * * “I’d think God would want to LIMIT my powers.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2000, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315/20 "2000-01-22T03:25:00Z")
Can any of you honestly say that you understand, or empathize with those two killers? Think about it. It was a premeditated slaughter, and they _enjoyed_ doing it. I know that every angle of the story has been covered, and you know all the details. Even so, I find it disturbing that anyone who is not mentally ill could empathize with Harris, and Klebold. In case you’re wondering, I was not a jock, or a member of the “in crowd.” I too know what it’s like to feel rejection. Adam * * * “Life is hard…but God is good” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-harris-and-klebold-asking-for-it/17315.md?page=2)