# Were Hospitals Cleaner 40 Years Ago? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 24, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002 "2009-10-24T20:53:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/1 "2009-10-24T20:53:10Z")
My question is related to the serious problem of hospital-borne infections. Many people contract serious infections when they stay in hospital, and this results in longer stays, and serious injury. When I was a kid, I remember visiting my grandfather in the hospital-and the place reeked of disinfectant. It seemed that the wals were constantly washed down, and the floors mopped (with strong-smelling disinfectant solution). Was this a good practice? Was hospital sanitation better (because of such practices)? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/2 "2009-10-24T21:10:56Z")
My WAG is that due to an overuse of antibiotics, bacteria have just become more resistant to cleaners and medication, and that’s why you have more serious infections nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/3 "2009-10-24T21:11:04Z")
Off hand, I’d say that, yes, it was a good practice, as far as hygiene went. The smell may have distressed some patients (like me), and I suspect that the materials walls and such are made of in hospitals nowadays are far more resistant to carrying germs. There are also more disinfectants available that don’t smell as strong, so any time you see someone mopping down a hallway, you can be sure they’re also disinfecting it. But hospital infections are as much about floors and walls as they are human contact. There’s an excellent section in the book _Better_ by Atul Gawande where he talks about the efforts hospitals make to control hospital-acquired infections. It centers primarily around hand-washing, clean scrubs, and getting doctors to stop wearing neckties (the tie, of course, falls forward and drapes on the patient during an exam, picking up infectious germs and transferring them to the next patient). And the germs you run into at a hospital are liable to be the more virulent versions of whatever is out there. You’re more likely to encounter MRSA at a hospital than a school, and the strain found in schools is not as bad as the one found in the hospitals. This is most likely because hospitals are a more rigorous breeding grounds for antibiotic-resistant bacteria than any school out there. While I doubt hospitals are less clean today than forty years ago, the germs are much, much worse. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/4 "2009-10-24T22:11:26Z")
Hospitals here were cleaner just a few short years ago because the cleaning was done by a union crew that got paid upwards of $20/hour to do it. The government broke up the union and contracted out to the lowest bidder. It saves all kinds of money paying teenagers $13 an hour to do the cleaning but they’re no damn good at it- they were diluting the cleaning solution down so much it was pretty much useless. Infection control didn’t exist at NRGH until several people died and the local press started taking notice. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/5 "2009-10-24T22:42:25Z")
And this is true where, DWMarch? Just in the nearest hospital? All over your city? All over British Columbia? All over Canada? All over North America? All over the world? Saying that something is true “here” is kind of confusing. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/6 "2009-10-24T23:37:44Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Hospitals here were cleaner just a few short years ago because the cleaning was done by a union crew that got paid upwards of $20/hour to do it. Well unions aren’t exactly known for producing the most efficient work either… ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/7 "2009-10-25T02:44:21Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Hospitals here were cleaner just a few short years ago because the cleaning was done by a union crew that got paid upwards of $20/hour to do it. The government broke up the union and contracted out to the lowest bidder. It saves all kinds of money paying teenagers $13 an hour to do the cleaning but they’re no damn good at it- they were diluting the cleaning solution down so much it was pretty much useless. Infection control didn’t exist at NRGH until several people died and the local press started taking notice. I didn’t twig what NRGH stood for, but as soon as I read your post to check your location, figuring you had to be in BC. Yup. I’m quite nervous about being admitted to hospital here in BC, given what I’ve read and heard about this issue. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/8 "2009-10-25T08:44:14Z")
Forty years ago, hospitals weren’t air-conditioned. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/9 "2009-10-25T09:09:46Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Forty years ago, hospitals weren’t air-conditioned. Did hospitals have HEPA filters in the HVAC systems 40 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/10 "2009-10-25T09:23:05Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > I suspect that the materials walls and such are made of in hospitals nowadays are far more resistant to carrying germs. That isn’t true only of hospitals, I worked for several years in a company that made solid paints and bases for liquid paint and the liquid paint carried biocides. For a few varieties (always kinds which would not be used in buildings, but for things like road paints) the biocide was merely a high pH and meant only to keep the paint from growing forests while in the can; for the construction varieties, they were complex molecules intended to stay active once the paint was in place (so don’t let the kid lick the wall). ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/11 "2009-10-25T21:21:53Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Forty years ago, hospitals weren’t air-conditioned. They were here in NC in the early 70s. But probably the older buildings up north had no AC. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/12 "2009-10-26T05:36:59Z")
A lot of modern disinfectants dont stink as much (or at least whatever else is in the bottle) and aerosol cans cost more than just pouring a liquid into a spray bottle. The smelly aerosol can has been missing from the toolkit of all sorts of cleaning crews for years. Before the ozone hole everything was an aerosol can. Not so much anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/13 "2009-10-26T06:16:58Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Forty years ago, hospitals weren’t air-conditioned. I live considerably North of your latitude and they had air conditioning in hospitals in the late 60’s. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/14 "2009-10-26T11:44:52Z")
The hospitals around here didn’t seem any cleaner than they do now, which is no cleaner than a person’s house that isn’t a slob. The surgeries and rooms for immune compromised patients are kept as close to sterile as possible, and have stuff like positive air pressure to keep contamination out. I don’t think that was around 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![hellpaso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@hellpaso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hellpaso)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/15 "2009-10-26T13:55:13Z")
I don’t know about 40 years ago, but I became a nurse over 30 years ago. Hospitals were certainly air conditioned (at least in Tennessee). One thing I don’t think is as clean nowadays is that most hospitals have some form of carpeting–if not in patient rooms at least in the hallways. They used to always have tile or other hard surface flooring that was easily disinfected. The modern cleaners and disinfectants don’t smell as strongly as the old agents. And I agree–the continued use (and misuse) of antibiotics has contributed to the emergence of the “superbug” bacteria. But to think the hospitals were cleaner 40 years ago–nah. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/16 "2009-10-26T14:52:06Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > They were here in NC in the early 70s. But probably the older buildings up north had no AC. They definitely did not. My mother tells of being in the hospital after delivering her first child (August 1953), and she got a room with a window A/C unit because her family happened to have donated some money to the hospital (possibly even to install window A/C units in some rooms though that wasn’t clear). She said everyone who could, hung out in her room. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/17 "2009-10-26T15:00:27Z")
The giant VA hospital near Tomah Wisconsin didn’t have air conditioning until sometime after 1990. The problem even had news coverage a one point. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/18 "2009-10-26T15:42:38Z")
I don’t know if “cleaner” can be adequately operationalized to generate an answer. 40 years ago, hospitals functionally did not practice universal barrier precautions. A strong smell does not say anything about whether a product disinfects better. It might be helpful to look at rates of iatrogenic infection and hospital-based mortality, though those don’t answer the OP as posed. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/19 "2009-10-28T11:10:13Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > And this is true where, DWMarch? Just in the nearest hospital? All over your city? All over British Columbia? All over Canada? All over North America? All over the world? Saying that something is true “here” is kind of confusing. It’s certainly true in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002/20 "2009-10-28T11:52:44Z")
Thanks, Mk VII, that’s a useful data point. I still would like to know what DWMarch meant in post #4. I wish people would be more careful about talking about something that is happening “here” when it’s not clear where they live. I had to click on DWMarch’s name to find where they live, since it’s not in their post header. It’s still not clear to me how widespread this business of contracting out cleaning to the lowest bidder is. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-hospitals-cleaner-40-years-ago/515002.md?page=2)