# Were John Brown or Charles Guiteau crazy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139 "2022-12-26T21:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/1 "2022-12-26T21:42:56Z")
If so, who was crazier? If not, why not? To me, they’re both raving lunatics, though very articulate and superficially sane rationalizers of their violent acts. I base this judgment (of their insanity) on their shared core beliefs that they were under instructions from the deity to kill people, and they dont appear to be feigning those instructions. I would also say that Guiteau is crazier if only because Brown acted in a cause that I sympathize with, but honestly once someone says that God literally appeared to him and told him what to do, I don’t much care if God told him to roast some marshmallows–that dude’s out of his skull. Both insanity defenses were smothered in the crib --Brown told his lawyer to skip it, and the judge in Guiteau’s case wasn’t buying it, but if I were on the jury that’s how I would have voted. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/2 "2022-12-26T22:16:01Z")
I think they both had a berth in the Crazy Train. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/3 "2022-12-26T22:20:35Z")
“John Brown” is not a very rare name. Are we referring to the one whose body is a-mouldering in the grave? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/4 "2022-12-26T22:57:22Z")
Charles Guiteau’s life screams more “entitled” than crazy to me whereas John Brown was the religious zealot wherein he could do no wrong because God was on his side. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/5 "2022-12-27T00:00:17Z")
The more I’ve read about John Brown, the more I’ve felt his fanaticism seems to lean towards crazy. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/6 "2022-12-27T00:13:32Z")
Is everyone who acts on God’s instructions crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/7 "2022-12-27T00:19:09Z")
When it comes to murdering people, yes. John Brown’s service in a just cause doesn’t justify his [extreme bad acts](https://civilwaronthewesternborder.org/encyclopedia/pottawatomie-massacre). I’d characterize him as a mentally unstable fanatic rather than a raving lunatic. [![](https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/abilene-rc.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/88/68898428-0c11-11e8-a598-ebc2ed7ea705/5a7b0a6d8c0ca.image.jpg) ](https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/abilene-rc.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/88/68898428-0c11-11e8-a598-ebc2ed7ea705/5a7b0a6d8c0ca.image.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/8 "2022-12-27T00:22:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > “John Brown” is not a very rare name. Are we referring to the one whose body is a-mouldering in the grave? Nitpick: “…in the _ground_”. In school, we were taught that John Brown was completely crazy. But what I’ve read since has made me question it. To paraphrase David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap, it’s such a thin line between crazy and zealously devout. I admit to not knowing much about Guiteau, but was taught that his condition was best described as ‘just plain nuts’. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/9 "2022-12-27T00:22:35Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Guiteau I think the fact that Guiteau joined a free love commune and still couldn’t get any was a big red flag. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/10 "2022-12-27T00:40:28Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > once someone says that God literally appeared to him and told him what to do, I don’t much care if God told him to roast some marshmallows–that dude’s out of his skull. That’s a pretty broad brush, do you want to qualify it at all? I am not arguing that either of the two you mentioned were or were not insane. I am arguing that merely having a delusion does not make one insane. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/11 "2022-12-27T00:47:05Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > do you want to qualify it at all? Not really. We all draw the line in different places. I draw it at delusions. Of course, I wouldn’t send someone to a mental institution for having delusions unless he committed a crime while being crazy, but I would say that a delusional person needs treatment. Why, do you think someone hearing the voice of God is sane? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/12 "2022-12-27T02:29:25Z")
I’m happy to be corrected, but as I look at some of the speeches and writings of John Brown I get the impression that he was simply a very devout person who actually took the Bible seriously, and thought the messages of loving your neighbor and doing things for the least of thee obviously applied to slaves. Like, he went to church and thought “I hear the message, and so I should ‘walk the walk’”. People said that was crazy, but it was crazy like a person today who decided to invite refugees to live in their house - it’s an extreme version of Christian charity, but did he really hear voices? At his trial > [@](#): > > I deny everything but what I have all along admitted – the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection… > > Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case)–had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends–either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class–and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment… > > I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them. It teaches me, further, to “remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them.” I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done–as I have always freely admitted I have done–in behalf of His despised poor was not wrong, but right. [https://www.famous-trials.com/johnbrown/613-brownspeech](https://www.famous-trials.com/johnbrown/613-brownspeech) Even in private correspondence with his family, I don’t get the impression that Brown was motivated by delusions. Rather, my impression was that he really internalized the message of Christ. > [@](#): > > …I also commend you all to him “whose mercy endureth for­ever”: to the God of my _fathers_ “whose I am; & whom I serve.” “He will never leave you or forsake you” unless you forsake him. Finally my dearly beloved be of good comfort. Be as it has been consistent with the holy religion of Jesus Christ in which I remain a most firm, & humble believer. Never forget the poor nor think any thing you bestow on them to be lost to you even though they may be as _black_ as Ebedmelch, the Ethiopian eunuch one to whom Phillip preached Christ. Be sure to entertain strangers. . . “Remember them that are in bonds as bound with them.” I am in charge of a jailor _like_ the one who took charge of “Paul & Silas;” & you may rest assured that both _kind hearts_ and _kind faces_ are more or less about me: whilst thousands are thirsting for my blood. “These _light_ allocations which are but _for a moment_ shall work out for us a far _more exceeding_ & _eternal_ weight of glory.”… And, by his final letter, my impression is that he is defending his faith, and trying to assure his family that he made the right choice. I don’t get the impression that Brown is claiming some direct connection to a divine voice. The godly commands come simply from the Christian message. > [@](#): > > I must yet insert the reason for my firm belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible, notwithstanding I am perhaps naturally skeptical, certainly not credulous. I wish all to consider it most thoroughly when you read that blessed book, and see whether you cannot discover such evidence yourselves. It is the purity of heart filling our minds as well as work and actions, which is everywhere insisted on, that distinguishes it from all the other teachings, that commends it to my conscience. Whether my heart be willing and obedient or not, the inducement that it hold. out is another reason of my convictions of its truth and genuineness; but I do not here omit this my last argument on the Bible that eternal life is what my soul is punting after this moment. I mention this as a reason for endeavoring to leave a valuable copy of the Bible to be carefully preserved in remembrance of me, to see many of my posterity, instead of some other book equal cost. > > I beseech you all to live in habitual contentment with moderate circumstances and gains of worldly store, and earnestly to teach this to your children and children’s children after you, by example as well as precept. Be determined to know by experience, as soon as may be, whether Bible instruction is of divine origin or not. Be sure to owe no man anything, but to love one another. John Rogers wrote to his children, “Abhor that arrant whore of Rome.” John Brown writes to his children to abhor, with undying hatred also, that sum of all villainies–Slavery. Remember, he that is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he that ruleth in spirit than he that taketh a city. Remember, also, that they, being wise, shall shine, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. [http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/johnbrown/brownprisonletters.html](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/johnbrown/brownprisonletters.html) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/13 "2022-12-27T03:20:38Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Why, do you think someone hearing the voice of God is sane? I don’t have much personal experience with people who claim to have heard the voice of God. But if they seemed sane in every other respect, then yes, I would think they were sane. They might be mistaken; God might actually have communicated with them; their own mind might be sending them a message in the “voice” of God—and those last two might not be mutually exclusive. None of those possibilities would make the person insane. Here’s one person’s take: [https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/29/my-take-if-you-hear-god-speak-audibly-you-usually-arent-crazy/](https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/29/my-take-if-you-hear-god-speak-audibly-you-usually-arent-crazy/) ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/14 "2022-12-27T03:54:52Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > do you think someone hearing the voice of God is sane? They certainly can be. If the rest of the person’s life is integrated with society and they are functional in it, I don’t call that insane. I happen to know someone pretty well in real life who fits that description. You can use whatever words you want, of course. I don’t think it’s reasonable to define insane as believing in things you don’t believe in, but that’s just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/15 "2022-12-27T03:56:21Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I admit to not knowing much about Guiteau, but was taught that his condition was best described as ‘just plain nuts’. His theory that since he made a pro-Garfield speech that (in his mind) got Garfield elected and so Garfield owed him a consulship to Paris seems like half the Karens I see on youTube. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/16 "2022-12-27T04:24:37Z")
Russell Bank’s great big book on John Brown’s life, [Cloudsplitter](https://www.amazon.com/Cloudsplitter-Novel-Russell-Banks/dp/0060930861/ref=sr_1_1?crid=371YXADSVN2ZN&keywords=cloudsplitter&qid=1672114845&s=books&sprefix=cloudsplitter%2Cstripbooks%2C136&sr=1-1), is one of the finest and most neglected novels of the 20th century. As a work of fiction, narrated by Brown’s son, it will not answer any questions but it does illume the times and personalities that drove such extremist acts. As for hearing the voice of god, I will remind posters that god doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/17 "2022-12-27T04:32:53Z")
Just chiming in with a +1 for that recommendation, it is a great book. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/18 "2022-12-27T06:50:30Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > I base this judgment (of their insanity) on their shared core beliefs that they were under instructions from the deity to kill people, and they dont appear to be feigning those instructions. Unless you’ve got a cite that shows John Brown claiming to directly speak with God, I think you’ve completely misunderstood how religious people think about God. Believing that God exists and wants you to do certain things isn’t a sign of insanity, it’s a sign of theism (and if you want to say that it’s enough of a delusion to make you crazy, then fine, but so is pretty much everyone else who is alive or has lived in the last few tens of thousands of years - ever since Homo sapiens or an earlier homonid first came up with abstract thoughts like gods and moral codes). What John Brown means when he says that God wants him to help abolish slavery is NOT that John Brown and God got beers at the pub last Thursday and God told him “you know, it would be totally cool if you killed a bunch of slavers, I hate those fuckers”. Rather, it means that John Brown, based on his studies of Christian theology, made a few conclusions: 1. God gave people certain rules for how to treat each other 2. Nowhere in the Bible does it say “Subject to exclusions and limitations. Rules do not protect Africans or their descendants, American Indians, or anyone else you find it convenient to subjugate”. 3. Given 1 and 2, the rules from step 1 should in fact apply to black slaves 4. The treatment of black slaves does not conform with the rules laid out in step 1 5. Given 3 and 4, the Southern planters are violating God’s laws about the treatment of ofher human beings. 6. Again per the Bible, people who violate rules should be stopped 7. Given 5 and 6, the Southern Slavers must be stopped. Frankly, while I am not a Christian and so may disagree with some of the initial assumptions, the logic is completely solid, and I certainly wouldn’t describe someone who followed that logic chain “insane” for doing so. John Brown should be an American hero, but Lost Cause mythology has horribly stained his legacy. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/19 "2022-12-27T07:58:27Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Russell Bank’s great big book on John Brown’s life, [Cloudsplitter](https://www.amazon.com/Cloudsplitter-Novel-Russell-Banks/dp/0060930861/ref=sr_1_1?crid=371YXADSVN2ZN&keywords=cloudsplitter&qid=1672114845&s=books&sprefix=cloudsplitter%2Cstripbooks%2C136&sr=1-1), is one of the finest and most neglected novels of the 20th century. One of the best (and longest) novels I have ever read. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139/20 "2022-12-27T08:31:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > 1. God gave people certain rules This is where you go off the tracks, the first part of step one. To find this possible or plausible or conceivable doesn’t make you a nut, just an unpleasant person I would cross the street to avoid talking to, but acting on it certainly makes you suspect, to my mind, and slaughtering people because of this belief of yours does make you into a lunatic, however much I endorse your abolitionist views, which can be fully justified on non-theistic moral grounds. Brown did walk the walk, and I admire his goals. But it’s a walk to Crazytown. I do find there are millions of undiagnosed crazy people in this country, but almost all of them are harmless because they don’t act on their crazy beliefs, most of them. They just think crazy thoughts, such as God (sometimes directly, sometimes through his written word–no real difference to me) is telling them “Do this or do that,” and sometimes think to inform me of the source of their lunacy, which doesn’t violate the law either, but restrain themselves somehow from committing actual felonies, which Brown could not do. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-john-brown-or-charles-guiteau-crazy/977139.md?page=2)