# Were lances used in actual combat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2005, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187 "2005-09-05T09:47:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/21 "2005-09-06T02:34:29Z")
> [@WonJohnSoup](#): > > Question not worthy of a new thread: how in the world did the lancer get the lancee off his lance once he skewered him? . I don’t know if it was the case during the middle-ages, but latter on at least, the lances were designed to break on impact, anyway… (and the lancers would either fight with whatever secondary weapon they had if they succeeded in breaking the ennemy line, or would ride back and take new lances if they didn’t). ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/22 "2005-09-06T02:45:06Z")
> [@WonJohnSoup](#): > > Question not worthy of a new thread: how in the world did the lancer get the lancee off his lance once he skewered him? Must’ve been quite a sight to see a calvary lancer run a guy through at full speed, tell the horse, 'Whoaaaaa, Silverware!!!" and then slowly back up, trying to scrape the body off the lance with the floor/his boot while everyone around him is trying to hack at him as he did this. > > My WAG: the lance either broke on the first guy, or they just dropped it and busted out the swords. Well, no. If you have seen pictures of 18th and 19th century lancers you will have noted that there is a little flag on the business end of the pole, just to the rear of the spear head. You see the same thing in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police’s musical ride. The little flag is not there for decoration. It serves to keep the lance head from penetrating _too_ deeply. Otherwise the trooper could find himself pulled off his horse by the weight of a flopping victim skewered half way up the shaft. For similar reasons the lance had a strap that looped around the trooper’s arm, so he could keep hold of his weapon once he had stabbed someone with it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/23 "2005-09-06T02:45:07Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > It’s also worth mentioning that many of the warhorses used by the knights were bred and trained to become quite large. It’d be like finding yourself needing to dodge a lancer coming at you in a Ford Ranger. Yes. The looked more like the huge farm horses formely used to pull plows (if you’re familiar with these breds. If you aren’t, they’re…well…huge, weighing close to a metric ton, very broad-chested, with enormous hooves and not exactly elegant) rather than like anything you see in movies ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/24 "2005-09-06T03:05:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Yes. The looked more like the huge farm horses formely used to pull plows (if you’re familiar with these breds. If you aren’t, they’re…well…huge, weighing close to a metric ton, very broad-chested, with enormous hooves and not exactly elegant) rather than like anything you see in movies Someplace I’ve read that this is probably not so. The knightly war horse was a big horse but not the huge, slow, modern draft horse with great strength and mild disposition. It was probably a lighter and more nimble horse weighing about 1300 pounds or slightly larger and standing about 16 hands tall at the shoulder (16 hands = 5 ft 4 inches). Your standard thoroughbred is about the same height but weighs from 800 to 1000 pounds in racing trim. It was the sort of horse we would call a heavy weight hunter or a carriage horse and the sort of horse used by the British household cavalry. A big old Belgian, Clydesdale or Shire horse just would not have the speed, endurance, spirit or agility needed for a knightly war horse. On top of that draft horses’ backs are just too broad for a rider to achieve a firm seat. You don’t just balance up there like a sack of potatoes. You have to grip with your thighs, knees and calf. If you can’t get your legs around the beast you are coming off at the first jump. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/25 "2005-09-06T03:23:16Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Someplace I’ve read that this is probably not so. p. Now that you’re mentionning it I remember having read this too. But forgotten it on behalf of the most widespread belief I was accustomed to. Please forget about my previous post on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/26 "2005-09-06T05:09:05Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Also, once you get the knight off his horse, what then? If he gets pinned by his horse, then you might have him at your mercy, but if he’s an experienced horseman, he might know how to throw himself clear of the horse. Now you have a heavily armed, heavily armored man who is quite well trained and experienced in fighting with said armor and weapons, and who know thinks you are responsible for trashing his Ford Ranger. 😃 Well, depending on what timeframe we’re talking about, an unhorsed knight might actually have been in deep trouble. Plate armour is _heavy_ (70 pounds or so) and without his horse to give him mobility, the fight is definitely no longer on the knight’s terms. If the enemy infantry can rush him while he’s still on the ground or if he’s unlucky enough to be on soft ground, his chances are poor. On the third hand, most knights were out of wealthy families who’d pay ransom to get them back alive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/27 "2005-09-06T05:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Think about your strategy for a minute. A rider is bearing down on you with a shield on one side and a lance on the other. He’s not frozen in place, so he can adjust both the horse and the lance if you move early. If you duck to his non-lance side, you either go low or he hits you with his shield. If you duck to his lance side, he can probably adjust the tip faster than you can move. If you don’t go far enough in one direction or the other, the horse tramples you. You might have a chance if you stood still, waiting for him to come, and then dove as far as you possibly could to his non-lance side at the last possible minute and hit the ground flat. If you move early, he’ll steer the horse to trample you. If you don’t go flat, he’ll hit you with his shield. If you move late, he lances or tramples you. If you time this just perfectly, you avoid the attack but are in no position to counterattack. At the very best, you can play defense and maybe sprint toward the trees while he wheels around for another pass. Maybe if you have a weapon and time things just perfectly, you can deflect the lance, move outside it, and still be in range to attack the rider, but that would be very tricky timing against a lance that is not only moving very quickly but can adjust its aim. Your margin for error is essentially zero. The other thing to remember is that in actual combat it’s not a one-on-one battle. If you’re a foot soldier and you jump five feet to the right just before the knight runs you through, he’ll just keep charging and kill the guy that had been standing behind you. Meanwhile, the knight that was charging five feet on his left is impaling you with his lance. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/28 "2005-09-06T06:09:02Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > It’d be like finding yourself needing to dodge a lancer coming at you in a Ford Ranger. Not a Dodge Ram Charger? 🙂 > [@Kinthalis](#): > > Reminds me also of the usual nonse I hear from some asian martial artists about how fighting without a weapon against someone with a weapon is no disadvantage at all. :roll: Heh. Reminds me of a conversation between two friends, one a practioner of kung fu, the other a collector of weaponry. Kung fu practioner said something like “Martial artists would just break the staff of a spear with their bare hands”. Collector pulled a spear (1.25" ash pole, I think, with a big sharp steel tip on it) off the wall, levelled it at the first fellow and said “Oh, OK. Show me.” Response was on the order of “Um, maybe that isn’t right after all.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/29 "2005-09-06T06:21:33Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I know lances were used in jousts and the like, and in fiction they’re used in real combat all the time, but it seems to me that a foot soldier would have an exceptionally easy time avoiding a lance attack. Just wait until the last moment, slide to one side, and put your sword into the horse’s body or the leg of the rider as he passes. There’s no way anyone could move a lance quickly enough to hit a fast-moving target. OTOH, if you’re fighting a dragon, a lance is your best bet. You’d never get close enough to use a sword, and arrows won’t penetrate its armor (unless you’ve got a little inside info 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/30 "2005-09-06T11:09:06Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#): > > Well, depending on what timeframe we’re talking about, an unhorsed knight might actually have been in deep trouble. Plate armour is _heavy_ (70 pounds or so) and without his horse to give him mobility, the fight is definitely no longer on the knight’s terms. If the enemy infantry can rush him while he’s still on the ground or if he’s unlucky enough to be on soft ground, his chances are poor. On the third hand, most knights were out of wealthy families who’d pay ransom to get them back alive. Plate armor wasn’t very heavy actually. Weighing on average from 30 to 50 pounds, the wieght of which is evenly distributed around the body. A modern infantry man carries a heavier and definately more awkward burden with his full kit. No, armor is an asset on the field, not a disadvantage, otherwise it would have never been used. Now, a lone armored knight without a horse against a whole infantry unit IS a bad situtation (for the Knight), but with his buddies fighting along side him, those infantry better be in full harness or they better be ready to run. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/31 "2005-09-06T12:58:10Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#): > > Well, depending on what timeframe we’re talking about, an unhorsed knight might actually have been in deep trouble. Plate armour is _heavy_ (70 pounds or so) and without his horse to give him mobility, the fight is definitely no longer on the knight’s terms. If the enemy infantry can rush him while he’s still on the ground or if he’s unlucky enough to be on soft ground, his chances are poor. On the third hand, most knights were out of wealthy families who’d pay ransom to get them back alive. Well, I’ve WORN a 65 pound pack before. First few days I had to wear it, it was rather heavy and cumbersome (then again, I was eating some of the food in the pack, so it was no doubt lighter after a few days 😉 I was able to run with it, climb up and down rocks and such with it, on one occasion I dove to the ground with it on my back and was able to get back up again with little fuss (yay survival reflexes in thunderstorms. Loud noise plus bright light = me diving for cover) That said, a suit of platemail would be much more evenly distributed than a hiking frame pack, as someone has just said. Also, backpacks aren’t articulated to move with you like a suit of armor is. And what trouble I had with the pack was with only about a week or two experience messing with it. Your typical knight going into combat would likely have years and years of experience training and fighting in that armor and wouldn’t find it an encumberance at all. Even if it was an encumberance, once he was on his feet, you’ve got yourself a 200 pound man in 50-70 pounds of armor and gear. HE could trample you to death 😃 ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/32 "2005-09-06T13:00:12Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Plate armor wasn’t very heavy actually. Weighing on average from 30 to 50 pounds, the wieght of which is evenly distributed around the body. A modern infantry man carries a heavier and definately more awkward burden with his full kit. I remember having my prejudices shattered by a video of a man wearing a full set of plate armour doing cartwheels. Plus which, as \*\*Raguleader \*\* says, knights were pretty much full-time professional warriors, spending lots of time jousting, riding to the hunt and other training-type activities. Even unhorsed, a knight in armour with a decent sword would have a pretty good chance against a peasant footsoldier. I’m not sure if this as been made completely clear, but lances were used both by knights (big heavy guys on big heavy horse with big heavy spear a very long time ago) and lancers (light unarmoured guy on smaller horse with long thin spear, relatively recently). As has been mentioned already, the latter were in use for a very long time because they were very effective and handy troops for reconnaisance, messing up infantry, pursuits, and lots of other things. I believe Polo was actually used as a training activity for lancers because it improved riding skills (along with tent-pegging and skewering various types of animals), so as you can imagine they were pretty manouevrable. And while I might believe you could possibly dodge a knight and hamstring his horse or otherwise take him out, I wouldn’t think it possible against a Bengal lancer or similar unless you were some sort of Ninja or he was some sort of Flashman. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/33 "2005-09-06T14:33:34Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Plate armor wasn’t very heavy actually. Weighing on average from 30 to 50 pounds, the wieght of which is evenly distributed around the body. A modern infantry man carries a heavier and definately more awkward burden with his full kit. > > No, armor is an asset on the field, not a disadvantage, otherwise it would have never been used. > > Now, a lone armored knight without a horse against a whole infantry unit IS a bad situtation (for the Knight), but with his buddies fighting along side him, those infantry better be in full harness or they better be ready to run. Peter Woodward’s “Conquest” covered this one. Basically, the guy in plate on the ground has a huge advantage. There were ways to try to negate those advantages, mostly through choice of appropriate weapons and choosing the battleground. Of course, your typical peasant is going to be armed with what he’s given (I’m guessing “spear”) and fight where he’s told to fight (“right there - try running and our archers kill you, bloody peasant”). That was such a cool show. I found the ‘ideal range’ of a pirates-era flintlock to be most informative. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/34 "2005-09-06T14:52:44Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > That was such a cool show. I found the ‘ideal range’ of a pirates-era flintlock to be most informative. > > -Joe Crucially, would it have the edge on a ninja throwing star? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/35 "2005-09-06T15:06:38Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Crucially, would it have the edge on a ninja throwing star? Probably not since you don’t jab people with the stars. The ideal range for one of their pistols was…point blank. Like swing with the sword, force a parry, and then jab them with the pistol and point the trigger. -Joe, arr matey! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/36 "2005-09-06T15:08:14Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Probably not since you don’t jab people with the stars. > > The ideal range for one of their pistols was…point blank. Like swing with the sword, force a parry, and then jab them with the pistol and point the trigger. > > -Joe, arr matey! And, if you’re feeling really mean, you could even point the trigger. ;j -Joe, not Jewish ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/37 "2005-09-06T15:11:29Z")
Holy brainlock, Batman! (wham) (wham) (wham) -Joe, not gonna quadruple post ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/38 "2005-09-06T15:14:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Probably not since you don’t jab people with the stars. > > The ideal range for one of their pistols was…point blank. Like swing with the sword, force a parry, and then jab them with the pistol and point the trigger. > > -Joe, arr matey! So when the ninja, instead of parrying, merely melts away like shadow before the lantern flame, the pistol-wielder is screwed? Hmm, I’m going to have to re-think the tactical dynamic here. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/39 "2005-09-06T15:23:36Z")
See, this is why the pirates never had their own country. No focus. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187/40 "2005-09-06T15:25:25Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Of course, your typical peasant is going to be armed with what he’s given (I’m guessing “spear”) [Monty Python Yorkshireman] A spear? You were _lucky!_ We ‘ad t’ make do wi’ a billhook nailed to the end of a long stick! _And_ we ‘ad t’ find us own grub! [/Monty Python Yorkshireman] Which I understand was the typical lot of the peasant infantry thoughout most of history – they had to supply their own arms and armour, and used what they could get hold of. Having said which, a billhook could be made into a pretty useful polearm, especially if the local smithy adds an extra spike or two. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-lances-used-in-actual-combat/320187.md?page=3)