# We're losing...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 15, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798 "2003-01-15T19:24:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/1 "2003-01-15T19:24:45Z")
I get in the car, and as I often do, turn on the radio. It’s a talk show. I listen. They’re talking about potential war in Iraq. Hoo boy.
I continue to listen. Caller after caller after caller makes completely generalized and uninformed statements about Iraq, the Middle East, terrorists, oil, September 11, North Korea, Muslims… et cetera, et cetera. It enraged me. It depressed me. It made me realize that the fight against ignorance can never be won.
It can never be won because some people _want_ to be ignorant. They are comfortable in their stable beliefs, and they don’t want to learn anything more. Though I find this attitude unbelieveable, I have to also face the fact that, sometimes, it is what people prefer. They prefer not to know anything more. Bartleby’s cousins, they prefer to be ignorant.
The real capper was the last caller I listened to before I simply turned it off. This bigot managed to cover just about all of the ignorance we’re fighting in a few sentences. This isn’t verbatim, I’m sure, but it’s as close as I can get it:
> [@](#):
>
> Well, y’know, I guess I’ve got a different take on this, because I’ve got three kids, y’know. And there’s these Arabs, Muslims, whatever… they’re identifiable, anyway, their clothes and beards. **And they’d gladly slit my children’s throats.**
Let’s see… racist, bigoted, ignorant, and it even includes an implied plea to _think of the children_ (!!!). This guy went on and could not (_would_ not) be dissuaded from the idea that all Muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists who would gleefully slaughter any American child they can get their hands on, just because they could. The host, to his credit, tried his best, but the caller would not back down.
The fight against ignorance is an admirable goal, and I will continue to fight the fight in any way I can, but I fight it now with the knowledge that it will never, _ever_ be won. This makes me inexpressibly sad.
There will always be those who _choose_ ignorance, who embrace it with the ferocity of a frightened child. Against these people, we will always lose.
---
### Author:  [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/2 "2003-01-15T19:34:23Z")
IMHO the fight against ignorance was lost the second our multi-celled fish-plant-dino hybrid ancestors crawled out of the ocean.
Look at it this way, when a war comes around it’s usually the idiots who end up as cannon fodder.
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### Author:  [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/3 "2003-01-15T19:39:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*
> \*\*Look at it this way, when a war comes around it’s usually the idiots who end up as cannon fodder. \*\*
Yeah, but it’s supposed to be the fight against **ignorance** , not against the ignorant.
A fine line, perhaps, but one worth noting.
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/4 "2003-01-15T19:40:53Z")
You can never use logic, reasoning, or facts, to pursuade someone who’s opinions are not based on logic, reasoning, or facts.
Unfortunately, we all fall into this category at one time or another. The difference is _seeing_ the basis for or foundation of our cherished thought. It takes a certain amount of humilty to admit (even to yourself) that you may be wrong.
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### Author:  [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/5 "2003-01-15T19:43:33Z")
Yeah, this is why I have pretty much given up on talk radio.
It is nothing more than a verbal masturbation contest among the lowest common denominator of low lifes, paranoids, and conspiracy freaks. A lot of it has devolved into a contest to see who can say the most inflammatory, outrageous, nonsensical crap in their time slot.
Burn a CD of your favorite songs and listen to that instead. Much less infuriating.
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/6 "2003-01-15T19:52:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*
> \*\*Look at it this way, when a war comes around it’s usually the idiots who end up as cannon fodder. \*\*
Say, **CRorex,** you might want to rephrase that before the friends and family members of people who have been called overseas get wind of this.
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### Author:  [@jack\_ss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jack_ss)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/7 "2003-01-15T20:12:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> There will always be those who choose ignorance, who embrace it with the ferocity of a _frightened child_.
I think that’s it right there, they _are_ frighhtened children. In order to remain children & avoid working on themselves they need to externalize their fear, so they grab the most convenient bogey man available. Osama bin Laden, Heavy Metal, Rap, Punk Rock, Communism, Saddam Hussein, Ayatolla Khomeni, drugs, liberals, refined sugar, hippies, godless pagans, the illuminati, illegal immigrants, jews, “niggers”. It doesn’t matter. Some people are assholes who need to blame someone else for their fears; who need an enemy. I’m afraid these folks are beyond help until they want to grow up.
That’s a big part of why I don’t listen to AM talk radio.
\*Before you flame me for using “the N word”, please read the entire post for context. \*
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/8 "2003-01-15T20:18:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*
> \*\*IMHO the fight against ignorance was lost the second our multi-celled fish-plant-dino hybrid ancestors crawled out of the ocean.
> \*\*
Hey. Don’t let them off the hook. I’ve met some STUPID ASS planaria in my day
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### Author:  [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/9 "2003-01-15T20:37:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The fight against ignorance is an admirable goal, and I will continue to fight the fight in any way I can, but I fight it now with the knowledge that it will never, ever be won. This makes me inexpressibly sad.
>
> There will always be those who choose ignorance, who embrace it with the ferocity of a frightened child. Against these people, we will always lose.
I don’t think there’s an original thought left in the Iraq debate. If I have to listen yet again to some immature talking-points reply like “Bush wants to get revenge because Saddam tryed to kill his _daddy_”, or “this is all about _oil_, of course,” I’m gonna pop. That kind of oversimplified one-sentence analysis is fine for idiot Hollywood types who want to sound informed, because most of us see right through them. It’s not ok for any serious discussion of the issues.
I know there are smart people who listen to talk radio. I listen to lots of it (though mostly for entertainment purposes, not enlightenment), I have some very smart friends who do as well. Somehow the 10% of listeners who could give a cogent reply to a question posed on Limbaugh or Hannity or O’Reilley (etc., etc.) never seem to get on the air, and we’re left with the 90% who just echo any theory that seems to validate their preconceptions. They hate Bush and “Big Oil”, so they come up with a theory validating that hatred that puts nefarious or childish purposes behind the looming war. Or they hate Arabs and come up with some theory validating their hatred by placing all the blame for potential war on “those dirty towelheads.” None of those explanations makes a lick of sense if you isolate it from the motivating belief, but they stick to it because it makes sense in the context of their childish and simplistic worldview. That’s how alot of people think and draw conclusions, and you’re right about it being hard to stop that kind of thinking.
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### Author:  [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/10 "2003-01-15T20:53:28Z")
I don’t listen to any program that lets members of the public call in and voice their opinions.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/11 "2003-01-15T20:55:58Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*
> **IMHO the fight against ignorance was lost the second our multi-celled fish-plant-dino hybrid ancestors crawled out of the ocean.**
Actually, it was a moment later, when one ancestor said to another: “You know what was keeping us in the ocean? THE JEWS!”
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### Author:  [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/12 "2003-01-15T21:19:01Z")
Makes me want to print up a bunch of bumper stickers that say:
**I’m an idiot, and I vote!**
…which, IMHO, is the really sad aspect of this attitude.
The greatest thing about a democracy is that anyone can vote.
The worst thing about a democracy is that anyone can vote.
**jarbaby** : LMAO - reminds me of that Far Side cartoon, titled “Humor at its Lowest Form”, which shows one amoeba pulling another amoeba’s shirt up and saying “Shirt’s on fire - NOW IT’S OUT!!”
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### Author:  [@ratty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratty)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/13 "2003-01-15T21:25:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Avalonian \*
> \*\*The fight against ignorance is an admirable goal, and I will continue to fight the fight in any way I can, but I fight it now with the knowledge that it will never, _ever_ be won. This makes me inexpressibly sad.
>
> There will always be those who _choose_ ignorance, who embrace it with the ferocity of a frightened child. Against these people, we will always lose. \*\*
“…together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat…” -J.R.R.T.
I’ve pretty much given up on humanity. You can never change the minds of those who don’t have one in the first place. There seems to be a literally endless supply of people viewing the world through their Idiot Goggles, and any attempt to remove said goggles will only result in a screaming match. Whoever repeats the same pointless rhetoric loudest and longest wins.
But then, it’s such a time saver to just believe whatever you want instead of what might actually be true. It saves you the hassle of having to think. And God knows we don’t have time for that. We’re too busy screaming at people.
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### Author:  [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/14 "2003-01-15T21:29:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Avalonian \*
> \*\* They prefer not to know anything more. Bartleby’s cousins, they prefer to be ignorant._\*
Who’s Bartelby? Do you mean Bartels, of Bartles & James? 'cause then you’re a fine one to talk - it’s spelled Bartles. And I guess you mean his cousins are supposed to be ignorant since they’re always drunk because, as cousins, they get free wine coolers. Kind of a tourtured analogy, if you ask me.
Or maybe you misspelled Bartlet, and his cousins wouldn’t use his book of familiar quotations because when his parents took him over to visit he broke all their toys like I did to my cousins, and they’re still pissed-off. But I only understand that because I had cousins, so it’s still a tortured analogy.
Please clarify - I’ll check back later. Gotta get back to my scrivening before my boss catches me surfing the net.
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/15 "2003-01-15T22:41:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Tygr \*
> \*\*
>
> **jarbaby** : LMAO - reminds me of that Far Side cartoon, titled “Humor at its Lowest Form”, which shows one amoeba pulling another amoeba’s shirt up and saying “Shirt’s on fire - NOW IT’S OUT!!” \*\*
Holy SCHLAMOLY! That is my A#1 favorite Far Side cartoon. How strange that you would mention it.
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### Author:  [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/16 "2003-01-15T22:58:54Z")
**ratty** , I’ll go you one better on the quotes…
> [@](#):
>
> The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
>
> - _The Fellowship of the Ring_
I should call into one of these radio shows and say just that. Nah.
**Slithy Tove** - Yeah, I know it was a tortured analogy. I’m giving the ignorant _far_ too much credit. 😃
**Tygr** and **jar** , that’s one of my favorites too.
Dang, I feel better already.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/17 "2003-01-15T22:59:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by **cuauhtemoc** \*
> I don’t listen to any program that lets members of the public call in and voice their opinions.
Ditto! It only attracts the bottom feeders.
I had the sad task to tell a certain fellow doper to back out on his fight (out of SDMB) against ignorance, racism, sexism, generalizations and plain stupidity. There are certain occasions when there’s no way to win. Some people apparently do feel the need to embrace their ignorance, it is like a floating device in an ocean of ideas. They find comfort in the idea that they are right, everybody else is wrong and they are better, and smarter than the rest.
We will never win. Unless we get rid of humanity… Catch 22.
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### Author:  [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/18 "2003-01-16T02:27:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*
> \*\*Look at it this way, when a war comes around it’s usually the idiots who end up as cannon fodder. \*\*
Or generals.
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### Author:  [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/19 "2003-01-16T03:06:57Z")
Are we all in agreement???
When does the party start???
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-losing/148798/20 "2003-01-16T03:19:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*
> \*\*Look at it this way, when a war comes around it’s usually the idiots who end up as cannon fodder. \*\*
:rolleyes:
I trust I need say no more.
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