# Were many testimonies at Winter Soldier false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043 "2004-10-07T16:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/1 "2004-10-07T16:29:46Z")
In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278894&page=5) Pit thread **Sam Stone** talks about the [Winter Soldier Investigation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation) (WSI), in which Vietnam war veterans confessed to participating in different atrocities during their service in vietnam. Some months after this event John Kerry testified before the House Foreign Committee. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Kerry took a bunch of stories from people who said they were vets, and repeated them on the floor of Congress as fact. […] Kerry stepped forward as a representative of those men, to repeat their stories to Congress. Stories which, by the way, turned out to be largely bullshit. In fact, many of those ‘decorated veterans’ turned out to not even have been in Vietnam. But Kerry didn’t bother to check. The responsibility for those claims rests just as much on his shoulders as theirs. This post contains the following assertions: - The testimonies of the veterans at WSI were largely bullshit. - Many of the speakers at the WSI that claimed to have been in Vietnam turned out to not even have been in in Vietnam. - John Kerry and/or those organizing the meeting in Detroit didn’t bother checking that out. Those assertions have now been discussed somewhat in that thread, but I think this subject is worthy of it’s own thread, and I would also like to give those that do not generally lurk in the Pit a chance to participate. Furthermore I would like to set up some ground rules. The assertions made by Sam are pretty straightforward, and a first step towards proving them would be: Show that **one specified participant** at the Winter Soldier Investigation: - Did speak at WSI, and - Claimed to have been in Vietnam, but in fact never were. And also show that **one specified participant** at WSI - Did speak at WSI - Claimed having witnessed specified atrocities, that can be showed not to have happened. The burden of proof, as usual rests with the party that makes an unproven assertion, here **Sam Stone** and those willing to help him prove his point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/2 "2004-10-07T18:52:51Z")
Just a caveat, if you will. There were indeed some fake veterans in the VVAW. I was personally close to a number of them, and privy to their discussions, though not a vet myself. It was a troublesome issue, as it led to suspicions amongst them, and difficulties in terms of trust and _bone fides_. Anyone would naturally be insulted to be interrogated suspiciously, and this would be likely to drive away the very vets they were trying to attract, if every “newbie” had to face a grilling. Its not like they could pick up a phone, call the defense department and get cooperation. For reasons having to do with the perversity of the human psyche, men will sometimes (often?) claim combat experience they did not have. Lord only knows why, but it happens. There were also, I am sure, fake vets who supported the war. I have no direct personal knowledge of such, but it stands to reason. So, yes, of course, some given number of the testimonials at the Winter Soldier event were falsified. No question. The questions are 1) how many and 2) what of it? ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/3 "2004-10-07T19:40:37Z")
> [@Elucidator](#): > > So, yes, of course, some given number of the testimonials at the Winter Soldier event were falsified. That may very well be the case, I simply don’t know enough about it myself. But I’d like specific proof on this point first, and then we can move on to how many they were. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/4 "2004-10-08T00:02:27Z")
> [@JohnFowles](#): > > - The testimonies of the veterans at WSI were largely bullshit. > - Many of the speakers at the WSI that claimed to have been in Vietnam turned out to not even have been in in Vietnam. > - John Kerry and/or those organizing the meeting in Detroit didn’t bother checking that out. > > Those assertions have now been discussed somewhat in that thread, but I think this subject is worthy of it’s own thread, and I would also like to give those that do not generally lurk in the Pit a chance to participate. Me too. Good idea. > [@](#): > > Furthermore I would like to set up some ground rules. The assertions made by Sam are pretty straightforward, and a first step towards proving them would be: > > Show that **one specified participant** at the Winter Soldier Investigation: > > - Did speak at WSI, and > - Claimed to have been in Vietnam, but in fact never were. OK. This is easy. Hubbard, the cofounder of VVAW claimed to have been a Vietnam Veteran, and Officer and a pilot wounded when his plane was shot. He in fact was a Sergent, a mechanic, and had never been to Vietnam as far as could be determined. I don’t think Hubbard gave testimony, but he certainly spoke. Michael Harbert another cofounder claimed to have flown forty seven missions and directed bombing against civilians was actually based in California throughout the war. It’s actually pretty tough to find and dispute most of the WSI, since they did such a poor job documenting what they did. I don’t think a single incident that came out of WSI was confirmed. > [@](#): > > And also show that **one specified participant** at WSI > > - Did speak at WSI > - Claimed having witnessed specified atrocities, that can be showed not to have happened. Please meet Mr. Pitkin: [http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=Pitkin1](http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=Pitkin1) > [@](#): > > The burden of proof, as usual rests with the party that makes an unproven assertion, here **Sam Stone** and those willing to help him prove his point. Well yes. The burden of proof does rest with the party making the accusation. That would be on Kerry and VVAW. Nobody has to prove them false. They need to prove their charges true, and they were extremely irresponsible in their gathering of evidence and in the testimony Kerry gave to which I hold him responsible and consider him a traitor for. You heard it from Elucidator. They didn’t want to hurt their feelings by trying to corroborate their statements or make sure they were who they said they were. While I admire the genteel sentimentality. I feel that it gives pretty short shrift to the **accused** ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/5 "2004-10-08T00:17:54Z")
From **Sam Stone’s** Wikipedia link in the pit thread. [The Link](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/092504D.shtml) > [@](#): > > ``` > From the National Archives: new proof of Vietnam War atrocities. > > ``` > > John Kerry is being pilloried for his shocking Senate testimony 34 years ago that many U.S. soldiers-not just a few “rogues”-were committing atrocities against the Vietnamese. U.S. military records that were classified for decades but are now available in the National Archives back Kerry up and put the lie to his critics. Contrary to what those critics, including the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, have implied, Kerry was speaking on behalf of many soldiers when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, and said this: > > _They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam, in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country._ > > The archives have **hundreds of files of official U.S. military investigations of such atrocities** committed by American soldiers. Some were true, some weren’t. Traitor is a mighty strong word for someone who did tell the truth. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/6 "2004-10-08T00:54:10Z")
That’s it? **Scylla** , come now, some substance! One meager cite to the Freepers? We’ve been all through this, you have _never_ been able get away with using that pack of jingoistic nutbars as a cite. Why do you keep at it? Why, it’s almost as though you had nothing else. And of course you do, you wouldn’t form such a damning opinion about a man of proven courage based solely on the testimony of his political enemies. And your charge, much like **Sam’s** , remains undefined. What, precisely, is Kerry supposed to have lied about? Did atrocities happen? Of course they did. Are you trying to prove that they didn’t? Or is it that the _specific_ incidents that the WI reported on never occured? You call Kerry a liar, but refuse to specify what he was lying about. Kerry says the events were “commonplace”. Is that the lie you are sore wroth about? Well, then specify. Quantify, if you can. What did Kerry mean, when he said commonplace. You must know, you have demonstrated that you can peer into his soul and outline his motives. Should be a simple matter to clarify that, given such prescience. How many is “commonplace”? Then, all you have to do is prove that the actual number of “misconducts” is far less than this number. And that Kerry knew this, or was willfully ignorant thereof. Whenever you’re ready. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/7 "2004-10-08T01:14:56Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > From **Sam Stone’s** Wikipedia link in the pit thread. > > [The Link](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/092504D.shtml) > > Some were true, some weren’t. Traitor is a mighty strong word for someone who did tell the truth. He didn’t tell the truth. His stories were generalized and unsubstantiated. Nothing that came out of Wintersoldier was substantiated. Atrocities occur in every war. A hero, an honorable man stands up and prevents them from occuring when he is on the scene. Failing that, he brings those to justice who committed the crimes. A traitor, a whiny opportunistic bitch, plays these incidents to his advantage. Kerry prevented nothing, brought no one to justice, interceded in no events. All he did was make a false and generalized indictment of those who did serve. His actions were devoid of honor. He got to play the whiny disenfranchised bitch wronged the the government, but not responsible for his own actions or lack thereof. At any rate, the OP stated rules and asked for very specific things. Those specific things were provided. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/8 "2004-10-08T02:03:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That’s it? > And your charge, much like **Sam’s** , remains undefined. What, precisely, is Kerry supposed to have lied about? Everything. It was a total and complete manufactured lie. Not a single incident in the Wintersoldier investigation was substantiated, not a single war criminal bought to justice. It was theater. Fiction. > [@](#): > > Did atrocities happen? Of course they did. Are you trying to prove that they didn’t? Or is it that the _specific_ incidents that the WI reported on never occured? You call Kerry a liar, but refuse to specify what he was lying about. I have been very specific over a number of threads. Kerry was lying when he claimed the mission of the swiftboats was to fire on villages and Sampans and kill innocent people. An interview to the Washington Star: "“We established an American presence in most cases by showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks. Those were our instructions, but they seemed so out of line that we finally began to go ashore, against our orders, and investigate the villages that were supposed to be our targets. We discovered we were butchering a lot of innocent people, and morale became so low among the officers on those ‘swift boats’ that we were called back to Saigon for special instructions from Gen. Abrams. He told us we were doing the right thing. He said our efforts would help win the war in the long run. That’s when I realized I could never remain silent about the realities of the war in Vietnam.” From here: [http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=WarCrimes](http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=WarCrimes) He lied about the meeting with Abrams. His indictment of Abrams was a lie. He claimed we were committing genocide. That is a lie. He claimed have committed atrocities personally. He claimed that firing in a free fire zone is contrary to the Geneva conventions and an atrocity. That is a lie. He claimed that .50 caliber machine guns were his only weapon to use against “people.” Not the “enemy” of “enemy soldiers” but people. That is a lie. He claims to have taken part in search and destroy machines and that they are against the Geneva conventions and are atrocities. That is also a lie. He claims to have burned villages personally. If that is the truth, he should be prosecuted and should not be President. If it is a lie, he should not be President for this slander since he says it was not just him. He said that atrocities and war crimes were a matter of written and established policy from the top down. He puts himself and those who gave the orders in the same category as LT. Calley of Mai Lai. If that is not a lie he should be held to that standard, under law. He claimed we were fighting a war of aggression in Vietnam which was also a lie. He lied about the specifics of his own service, self-aggrandizing at the expense of his fellow veterans. He lied when he said he was no longer with VVAW while they were plotting the murder of several Senators. His cofounders were liars and frauds. If his tribunal “Wintersoldier investigation” could reasonably be considered credible enough to be held to a standard, then he suborned perjury from Pitkin. He lied about the report he cited saying that 65-85% of soldiers in Vietnam were stoned 24/7 to help them deal with the atrocities they were committing. But mainly, Elucidator, the whole entire fucking thing was a lie from start to finish. There was not even lip service paid to the standards of evidence necessary to support the charges. He didn’t even fucking attempt to substantiate anything. He didn’t need to. These things weren’t put out there for truth, they were put out there for theatre. His little fucking medal tossing play is about as painfully stupid as the street theatre in Billy Jack. He was playing games to fulfill his political aspirations. Let me give you an example: If I see a man abusing a woman physically, and I have honor, I intervene. If I cannot or do not, or otherwise fail, I participate in bringing that man to justice. I have conducted myself with honor. If on the other hand I do nothing, but later gather up a bunch of unsubstantiated stories, and make a general indictment about how men suck, and how terrible and awful it is to be a man, and how disenfranchised I feel to be a man because society has made me into this thing that hurts women, and isn’t just sad… Then I would be nothing but a whiny self-centered bitch. What Kerry did is ten times worse, because he solicited false stories to make his case to paint his fellow veterans as war criminals while they in the overwhelming majority served with an honor that Kerry did not reciprocate. He accused them **without** taking responsibility, either for himself and his own “war crimes” or for his accusations, by refusing to be specific with his pathetic mewling about “moods.” He got revealed for the bitch he is on the Dick Cavett show, the only time he faced O’neil and was unable to substantiate any of the accusations he made against others. You should watch it sometime. Rarely has an individual had his ass so completely handed to him. The audience started off supporting Kerry and they were booing him by the end, because his lies were so pathetically obvious. > [@](#): > > Kerry says the events were “commonplace”. Is that the lie you are sore wroth about? Well, then specify. Quantify, if you can. What did Kerry mean, when he said commonplace. You must know, you have demonstrated that you can peer into his soul and outline his motives. Should be a simple matter to clarify that, given such prescience. I can. He is as transparent in this as saran wrap. I don’t have to specify or quantify. Kerry does. He is the one making the accusations. He is the one who held the investigation. He is the one who testified to congress. With nothing. Nothing at all. He just walked in with his medals on his fatigues, and told a bunch of nonspecific generalized lies. It is the very fact that he presented nothing specific, named no names, brought no one to justice, that proves the worthlessness and self-serving nature of his little endeavor. The greatest indictment here against Kerry is that **He didn’t even bother to try to bring one person to justice, to make one claim stick.** The fucker didn’t even try. That shows you it wasn’t about justice. It was about affect. > [@](#): > > How many is “commonplace”? Then, all you have to do is prove that the actual number of “misconducts” is far less than this number. And that Kerry knew this, or was willfully ignorant thereof. Generalizations don’t cut it. You don’t get to walk up and make a bunch of generalized statements to indict your fellow servicemen and hope they are so general that they can’t be disproved. You don’t get to do it if you have honor, I mean. You don’t get to do it if you don’ t want to be branded a traitor. You don’t get to do it if you want to play war hero. You don’t get to do it if you want to be President. You said it yourself previously: > [@](#): > > There were indeed some fake veterans in the VVAW. I was personally close to a number of them, and privy to their discussions, though not a vet myself. It was a troublesome issue, as it led to suspicions amongst them, and difficulties in terms of trust and bone fides. Anyone would naturally be insulted to be interrogated suspiciously, and this would be likely to drive away the very vets they were trying to attract, if every “newbie” had to face a grilling If you knew it was problematic, certainly Kerry did. If you have honor, and you identify a problem, and you care about justice and the truth, if you care about your country, and those who are still serving… Then you do not go and indict the entire country and those who served based upon what you **know** is problematic and faulty evidence. You just don’t go ahead and put these accusations out there because you are afraid it would be impolitic to try to divine the fucking truth. > [@](#): > > So, yes, of course, some given number of the testimonials at the Winter Soldier event were falsified. No question. The questions are 1) how many and 2) what of it? If you are holding the investigation and you are going to present your evidence it is your responsibility to answer #1, as for “what of it?” If you fail number one, or you don’t even bother to address it, than your results, what you have to say concerning your “investigation” are, on the best face of it, Worthless. In any rational sense you should be held responsible for it if you assert such worthlessness as truth. Now please be advised my friend, in rereading this before I hit submit, I see that I have put some strong words here, and I have used the term “you.” I understand that you were involved on the periphery of this thing. I know nothing about what you did, and it really doesn’t matter. I don’t want you to be confused and think that my use of “you” is specific to you personally. I am using the generic “you” here. As in: If **you** shoot an elephant **you** better be sure and finish the job. Clearly I am not accusing you personally of shooting elephants. The you is generic. I bring this up to head up any sense of personal affront or huffiness that you may decide to throw my way. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/9 "2004-10-08T02:03:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > He didn’t tell the truth. His stories were generalized and unsubstantiated. Nothing that came out of Wintersoldier was substantiated. You are over a barrel here **Scylla**. A man who makes light of another man’s fighting reputation has to take his beatings. This is yours. Specific and substantiated stories: > [@](#): > > “They had Personally Raped” > > ``` > On August 12, 1967, Specialist S., a military intelligence interrogator, "raped . . . a 13-year-old . . . female" in an interrogation hut in a P.O.W. compound. He was convicted of assault and indecent acts with a child. He served seven months and 16 days for his crimes. > > ``` > > “Cut off Ears” > > On August 9, 1968, a seven-man patrol led by First Lieutenant S. entered Dien Tien hamlet. “Shortly thereafter, Private First Class W. was heard to shout to an unidentified person to halt. W. fired his M-16 several times, and the victim was killed. W. then dragged the body to [the lieutenant’s] location. . . . Staff Sergeant B. told W. to bring back an ear or finger if he wanted to prove himself a man. W. later went back to the body and removed both ears and a finger.” W. was charged with assault and conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline; he was court-martialed and convicted, but he served no prison time. B. was found guilty of assault and was fined $50 a month for three months. S. was discharged from the army before action could be taken against him. > > “Cut off Heads” > > On June 23, 1967, members of the 25th Infantry Division killed two enemy soldiers in combat in Binh Duong province. An army Criminal Investigation Division (CID) probe disclosed that “Staff Sergeant H. then decapitated the bodies with an axe.” H. was court-martialed and found guilty of conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline. His grade was reduced, but he served no prison time. Copyright prevents more detail. When did you become fit to judge another man’s honour **Scylla**? There is no reason in your rant, no argument. It is all emotion and dishonesty, lacking the appropriate emotion which is shame. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/10 "2004-10-08T02:30:09Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > . > When did you become fit to judge another man’s honour **Scylla**? The day I recognized my own was faulty. As for your cites, well, I suppose I could indict the men of NYC generally as rapists and get away with it, by showing that a raped had occured according to the logic you present. Were any of these people at Wintersoldier? Did they tesitify there? Your cite **proves** my point. These things were uncovered and brought to justice because of people who had honor. People who, on the scene, intervened, or people who put themselves at risk to bring the specific perpetrators of the specific incidents to justice. People who did there job and served with honor. This proves that it wasn’t a fucking conspiracy in which the officer corps was complicit, and that it wasn’t commonplace, and that it wasn’t ordered at all levels, and that everyone wasn’t walking around stoned 24/7 to deal with it. We know about these things and they were brought to justice because people on the scene intervened, and held the others on the scene accountable, and because real investigations were held to bring these criminals to justice. It sickens me to even see you try to compare Kerry’s Fonda funded fuck party Kangaroo court charade, with real atrocities bought to justice by real responsible people doing their jobs and serving honorably. Am I speaking too strongly? Well sorry. The difference between Kerry’s Wintersoldier political theater and the real world can be summed up in the following: If a man walked into the Wintersoldier testimony and talked about how he personally had wired up genitals to a generator and tortured innocent people, killed women and children, what happened to that person? He was thanked for coming forward. He was a good guy. He was thanked for providing the ammunition that Kerry sought. In the real world. In a non-kangaroo court. In non-theatre. You do that and you are held responsible. Kerry did NOTHING. He uncovered NOTHING. HE stopped NOTHING. He brought NO ONE to justice. Kerry gathered stories without regard or care to their veracity, and presented them as truth in political theater to serve his personal needs. He did that without regard to his fellow veterans, and he did that without regard to the effect it would have on POWs being held by the VC and other men suffered because of this irresponsibility. Kerry knew better because he had been through a military course in capture and evasion and knew what the POWs would have to deal with. He did it anyway. There is no excuse, nothing that ameliorates this level of treachery. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/11 "2004-10-08T02:52:58Z")
All of these blazing charges, substantiated by one cite……one!...and that the same old swifties. Once again, you expect to be taken seriously when the only testimony, the only authority, you offer is the very people making the accusations! The man’s sworn political enemies! Then you rattle off a litany of charges, without the slightest hint of proof or cite. Having done that, you assail Kerry for…….making unsubstantiated charges! With a straight face! > [@](#): > > …He was playing games to fulfill his political aspirations… Says who? You? Let me clue you in, puppy. Attaching yourself to the anti-war movement, in 1971, was not a “career move”. We were not widely beloved. Again, you claim to peer into his soul and inventory the contents, assess the motivations of a man you never met. Who died and made you God? > [@](#): > > …I don’t have to specify or quantify… Good thing. Seeing as you can’t. Very handy that your case remains utterly irrefutable without such minor details. > [@](#): > > …Kerry did NOTHING….He uncovered NOTHING….HE stopped NOTHING….He brought NO ONE to justice… None of which was his responsibility. It was our responsibility. He told the truth, as best he knew it. It was up to us to stop things, to bring people to justice. Hell, he was testifying to a Senate committee, maybe the poor idealistic fool thought _they_ might do something about it! But heres one good example: you claim that none of the Winter Soldier revelations resulted in a criminal prosecution. Cite? (Besides which, may we assume that your authority for that assertion is either swiftvet or freeper? Again? Have you got anything else? Anything at all?) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/12 "2004-10-08T03:18:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > All of these blazing charges, substantiated by one cite……one!...and that the same old swifties. Once again, you expect to be taken seriously when the only testimony, the only authority, you offer is the very people making the accusations! The man’s sworn political enemies! Balderdash! Poppycock! Smegma, Sir! Cutachese! This dog just won’t hunt. Busllshit of the most egregious sort. The two different cites I have provided are quoting Kerry in his own words. It does not matter on what particular part of the internet they are located. They are Kerry’s words. They are not in dispute. > [@](#): > > Then you rattle off a litany of charges, without the slightest hint of proof or cite. Having done that, you assail Kerry for…….making unsubstantiated charges! With a straight face! I have Kerry’s own words. I have cited them. In the previous quote, you note that I **have** made a cite. A sentence later you accuse me of not providing a cite. I understand where you’re coming from. Any cites that contain information you don’t like don’t exist. Only cites that contain information you like, exist. Therefore I have not provided any cites. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Says who? You? Let me clue you in, puppy. Attaching yourself to the anti-war movement, in 1971, was not a “career move”. We were not widely beloved. Again, you claim to peer into his soul and inventory the contents, assess the motivations of a man you never met. Who died and made you God? Jesus. > [@](#): > > Seeing as you can’t. Very handy that your case remains utterly irrefutable without such minor details. Kerry had made the charges. He had the responsibility to prove them. I have not made the charges. It is not my responsibility to prove something didn’t happen. Here, I’ll write it so a three year old can understand: I hereby accuse you of stealing a lollipop on June 2, 1973. Prove that you didn’t. I want cites. If you can’t do it, that proves your guilty. We will call this Elucilogic. Question for the class. What’s wrong with it? > [@](#): > > None of which was his responsibility. Oh yes it was. If he saw it (as he claimed to) and he was a party to it (as he claimed to be) than he was responsible for it. The following orders defense didn’t work at Nuremburg, and it doesn’t work for Kerry. He is also responsible for what he puts out there and for the effect that it has. He is responsible for its content. I know you are familiar with this concept because you hold Bush responsible for his assertions. You’ve been arguing that false and irresponsible assetions have consequences, so I know this is not Greek to you. > [@](#): > > He told the truth, as best he knew it. No. He didn’t. **You** told me that. You knew some of these guys. You knew that there were imposters and liars. You said so in this very thread. Are you asserting that Kerry who was at the very forefront of this thing was not cognizant of this fact that even you on the periphery held? Are you seriously saying that he is that stupid? I don’t beleive it. Kerry isn’t stupid. > [@](#): > > Hell, he was testifying to a Senate committee, maybe the poor idealistic fool thought _they_ might do something about it! He’s not that stupid. Nobody he thinks he’s that stupid. You know he’s not that stupid. I know you’ve read the testimony. Tell me truly, swear on your children that you don’t think he knew **exactly** what he was doing. > [@](#): > > But heres one good example: you claim that none of the Winter Soldier revelations resulted in a criminal prosecution. Cite? How am I to cite an absence? There is no prosecution, so there is nothing to cite. That’s the point. How the hell am I supposed to find you a link to a case that didn’t exist? > [@](#): > > (Besides which, may we assume that your authority for that assertion is either swiftvet or freeper? Again? Have you got anything else? Anything at all?) No. That is not the source. I looked myself. I read the FBI file which is available for download at [Wintersoldier.com](http://Wintersoldier.com). It took a long time. Actually, I didn’t really read it as much as skim it, but you get the idea. I looked at the VVAW site (I think it’s another name now) and searched. I found this out all by myself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/13 "2004-10-08T03:22:15Z")
The purpose of the Winter Soldier Testimony was to point out that the problems were endemic. These were the responsibility of a failed leadership. Did it succeed in that purpose? Yes Was it correct, were the atrocities widespread? Yes Were they _universal_ and brought about by a conspiracy? WSI never said so. So one may have differing views about the best approach to take. ‘Prosecute the culpable individuals’ cries **Scylla**. Kerry et co, took a different approach. They saw the fault elsewhere. Were they correct? A matter of opinion. > [@](#): > > The assertion that the vets proved uncooperative and refused to provide useful, identifiable information has also been a typical device used to refute the WSI. In this case, the Winter Soldiers themselves played directly into the hands of their detractors by trying to have it both ways: They wanted to expose atrocities as a product of command policy while denying individual soldiers’ responsibility in committing the crimes. > > At the WSI, veteran after veteran told of brutal military tactics, like burning villages and establishing free-fire zones. They offered blunt, graphic, and often horrific accounts of murder, rape, torture, mutilation, and indiscriminate violence. But when it came to perpetrators, the soldiers did not name names. From the outset, they made it clear that they would not allow their testimony to be used to, as they put it, scapegoat individual G.I.'s and low-ranking officers when, they said, it was the war’s managers-America’s political and military leadership-who were ultimately to blame for the atrocities No, I don’t think **Scylla** can comment reliably on honour. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/14 "2004-10-08T03:28:03Z")
The men of New York City are rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/15 "2004-10-08T03:34:25Z")
Some are. Discuss the appropriate level of generality to use. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/16 "2004-10-08T03:53:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …We will call this Elucilogic… You wish. Still widely known as a **Scyllagism** > [@](#): > > … so I know this is not Greek to you… I want credit for stern self-denial in ignoring this straight line. > [@](#): > > …How am I to cite an absence? There is no prosecution, so there is nothing to cite. That’s the point. How the hell am I supposed to find you a link to a case that didn’t exist?.. But you are entirely willing to cite that absence as proof of your case. Didn’t it occur to you that the reason no prosecutions occured _after_ the WS event is the same reason they didn’t take place _before_? You have some reason for us to believe that the US Army was virgorous in pursuit of such accountability? Besides a faith that surpasseth all understanding, that is? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/17 "2004-10-08T04:40:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Still widely known as a **Scyllagism** Holy crap, man, do you realize how bad that sounds if you quickly say it a few times? There are _children_ reading these forums! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/18 "2004-10-08T05:07:25Z")
Nah, they got those filter-thingys, screen out porno, thought-crime, stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/19 "2004-10-08T10:38:31Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I read the FBI file which is available for download at **[Wintersoldier.com](http://Wintersoldier.com)** I assume this has been pointed out elsewhere, but an FYI for those who might not have caught it, this web site is a freeper site, violently anti-Kerry, and nothing to do with the real Winter Soldiers who told their stories. That URL redirects to [http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/](http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/) Faux Winter Soldier Liars for Bush. Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043/20 "2004-10-08T16:02:25Z")
So…that’s it then? The total and sum of **Scylla** s substantiation for his charges of treason and treachery consist entirely of the testimony of Kerry’s political enemies? So, if I tear a headline off of _Democratic Underground_ or _Buzzflash_ and splash it onto this forum, I may reasonably expect that such will be taken as Gospel? Or have you something else, **Scylla**? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-many-testimonies-at-winter-soldier-false/268043.md?page=2)