# Were military ranks/titles ever hereditary in England? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311 "2013-08-04T09:10:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/1 "2013-08-04T09:10:06Z")
Hi, Were military ranks/titles ever hereditary in England/within the British Empire(incl. colonial America). If so when did the tradition end. I seem to remember reading or hearing about but couldn’t find any supporting evidence. I appreciate your feedback. Thanks. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/2 "2013-08-04T09:37:36Z")
Closest I can think of is the position of Earl Marshal. Still exists and is heredity but except for coronation s is a sinecure. It was once a senior position in the army. Not for several hundred years thoughm ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/3 "2013-08-04T10:51:26Z")
No. They were sold, but they couldn’t be inherited. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/4 "2013-08-04T11:17:40Z")
Thank you for your prompt reply davidmich ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/5 "2013-08-04T12:20:22Z")
From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The purchase of officer commissions in the British Army was a common practice through most of its history. The practice started in 1683 during the reign of Charles II and continued until abolished on 1 November 1871, as part of the Cardwell Reforms. > > Social exclusiveness was preserved not only by money, but regimental colonels were permitted to, and often did, refuse to allow the purchase of a commission in their regiment by anyone who had the necessary money but was not from a social background to their liking. This was especially the case in the Household and Guards regiments, which were dominated by aristocrats. Elsewhere however, it was not unknown for Colonels to lend deserving senior non-commissioned officers or warrant officers the funds necessary to purchase commissions ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/6 "2013-08-04T12:26:05Z")
And that’s one reason the British were known to have the worst cavalry in Europe. Note that ranks were \*not \*sold in the navy - every admiral worked his way up from midshipman. Unlike their army, the Brits took their navy seriously. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/7 "2013-08-04T12:37:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And that’s one reason the British were known to have the worst cavalry in Europe. > > Note that ranks were \*not \*sold in the navy - every admiral worked his way up from midshipman. Unlike their army, the Brits took their navy seriously. Ranks were not sold in the artillery or engineers either. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/8 "2013-08-04T12:57:49Z")
That’s because all a cavalry or infantry officer had to do was wave his sword and say “After me!”, which any idiot can manage. Artillery and engineering officers had to actually \*know \*something. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/9 "2013-08-04T12:59:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And that’s one reason the British were known to have the worst cavalry in Europe. > . Military ranks (up to colonel) were sold in France too, and I would guess it was the same all over Europe at the time (It ended sooner in France than in the UK, obviously, since we had revolutions and such things…) So, assuming that the British cavalry indeed had a particularly bad reputation, I doubt it was a result of the sale of military ranks since AFAIK that was the norm. Anyway, the British army in general never had a good reputation until WWI (except in Independence War-related American national legend). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/10 "2013-08-04T13:08:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s because all a cavalry or infantry officer had to do was wave his sword and say “After me!”, which any idiot can manage. Not even that. Many officers were absent most of the time, even sometimes during wars. To give an extreme example, I don’t know if it was the case in the UK, but in France a regiment could be bought for a child. (hence the necessity of lieutenant-colonels since someone had to actually be in charge) ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/11 "2013-08-04T13:23:56Z")
Was the buying of military commission also common/rife in Revolution-period America? Among colonials? davidmich ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/12 "2013-08-04T13:27:19Z")
Wasn’t being a member of the gentry usually a requirement for an officer’s commission? They had money of course, but also the social class was a consideration too. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/13 "2013-08-04T13:32:37Z")
> **[Coat of arms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms)** > > A coat of arms is a heraldic visual design on an escutcheon (i.e., shield), surcoat, or tabard (the last two being outer garments). The coat of arms on an escutcheon forms the central element of the full heraldic achievement, which in its whole consists of a shield, supporters, a crest, and a motto. A coat of arms is traditionally unique to the armiger (e.g. an individual person, family, state, organization, school or corporation). The term "coat of arms" itself, describing in modern times jus > [@](#): > > When knights were so encased in armour that no means of identifying them was left, the practice was introduced of painting their insignia of honour on their shield as an easy method of distinguishing them. Originally these were granted only to individuals, but were afterward **made hereditary in England by King Richard I** , during his crusade to Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/14 "2013-08-04T13:33:29Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Anyway, the British army in general never had a good reputation until WWI (except in Independence War-related American national legend). Except for that little unpleasantness in the Peninsula, and then that little skirmish on the Belgian frontier in 1815. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/15 "2013-08-04T13:42:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > […] and then that little skirmish on the Belgian frontier in 1815. 😉 How Anglo of you to bring up the half-assed comeback tour when everybody knows it was over at Leipzig. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/16 "2013-08-04T13:52:56Z")
I also read that the reason that they didn’t sell commissions in the Royal Navy was that it is imperative to have somebody in charge of a ship on the high seas who actually knows what he is doing. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/17 "2013-08-04T14:09:18Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I also read that the reason that they didn’t sell commissions in the Royal Navy was that it is imperative to have somebody in charge of a ship on the high seas who actually knows what he is doing. They got arseraped by the Dutch one too many times. Reforms were made in the 1660’s. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/18 "2013-08-04T15:08:06Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Was the buying of military commission also common/rife in Revolution-period America? Among colonials? > davidmich Americans had no standing army, so there really wasn’t even the opportunity for this. A well-to-do man or a village leader could raise a militia outfit, and took an officer’s title for leading them. They would be incorporated into the larger army during the Revolution. In various guises that kept on being a tradition until the Civil War. By the end of that war, the need for professional, trained, competent leaders was obvious. The practice mostly died out, except for one last hurrah in the Spanish-American war. The [Rough Riders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_riders) were technically the 1st United States Volunteer Cavalry, one of three, but the only one to see combat. Even so, this is a different system than in Europe. We didn’t have the class system and we didn’t have the perpetual standing armies. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/19 "2013-08-04T15:14:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Except for that little unpleasantness in the Peninsula, and then that little skirmish on the Belgian frontier in 1815. 😉 “Little unpleasantness” might be the right word. It’s not surprising that British people would be particularly familiar with the campaigns/battles they were involved in during the Napoleonic wars but in the grand scheme of things those were fought mainly by other nations and British direct military involvement on land was rather minimal. I heard about the presence of British soldiers in Spain/Portugal for the first time when, well into my 20s, I bought a cardboard wargame about some battles of the “peninsular war”. Certainly, it’s a reflection of my own ignorance, but given that the Revolutionnary/Napoleonic era is quite well covered in French schools, it shows that this war is perceived as a minor sideshow barely worth mentioning (on the other hand I remember pretty well being taught about the Spanish guerillas). Meanwhile, campaigns against Prussians, Austrians, Russians, took chapters. And deservedly so. I just looked up wikipedia, and it mentions 30 000 men for the British expeditionnary force in the Iberian peninsula. Battle of Austerlitz alone : 85 000 Russians and Austrians. Battle of Leipzig : 375 000 Russians, Austrians, Prussians and Swedes. Even Waterloo : 25 000 British, 17 000 Dutch, 50 000 Prussians, 20 000 other Germans. Not extremely impressive. The UK waged war against France during this era with her navy, with her money and with her diplomatic corps. Only minimally so with her army. In fact, this isn’t limited to the Napoleonic Era. Historically, the UK always tried to avoid fighting on land whenever possible. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311/20 "2013-08-04T15:28:06Z")
In the Middle Ages, nobiliary titles often involved military duties (not always, but the immense majority of the time - titles without military duties tended to be later grants); those military duties were inherited with the land and title, but it was a “pack” and eventually the military duties got their own names, which are the ones that were generally not hereditary. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-military-ranks-titles-ever-hereditary-in-england/665311.md?page=2)