# We're No. 1! Pattaya Named Top Sin City **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 27, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441 "2013-05-27T02:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/21 "2013-05-29T12:01:36Z")
I suppose the fact that I have been to 8 of these ( missed Macau and Tijuana ) speaks poorly of my moral character, but I assure you that I am a good boy and I stayed out of the red light districts. I walked through a few of them just out of curiosity or necessity, but never as a patron of the services. When I was much younger, dad was stationed in Bangkok and the family would go to Pattaya beach for the weekend. There were several beach houses available for rent as well as a common pavilion that hosted happy hour for the grownups and movie night for the kids. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/22 "2013-05-29T12:17:17Z")
Looks like I finally have the official answer to the question I posted here in 2008! (The question was: _What are the [Seven Sinful Cities?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=478326) The cities where, if you put a foot wrong, you will wind up in a back alley, beaten, robbed, drugged, and sold into slavery in a brothel?_) ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/23 "2013-05-29T13:09:18Z")
I wonder if New Orleans is annoyed at being rated below Las Vegas. But I bet they’re both annoyed at being undercut by cheap foreign labor. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/24 "2013-05-29T13:14:59Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Story [here](http://www.news.com.au/travel/debauchery-and-gluttony-askmen-examines-the-worlds-most-sinful-cities/story-e6frfq7r-1226644397806). > > The complete list: > > 1. Berlin > 2. Macau > 3. Manama (Bahrain) > 4. New Orleans > 5. Moscow > 6. Rio de Janeiro > 7. Las Vegas > 8. Amsterdam > 9. Tijuana > 10. Pattaya! > > Actually, I can’t stand Pattaya. It’s too over-the-top even for me! The USA makes the top ten list twice! The only country so honored. Probably the influence of Hollywood, or a limited travel budget. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/25 "2013-05-29T14:18:02Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > The cities where, if you put a foot wrong, you will wind up in a back alley, beaten, robbed, drugged, and sold into slavery in a brothel?\*) I don’t know if that is likely to happen to you in Pattaya. However, you will, if you put one foot wrong, wind up in a back alley, with your hand on someone’s tit, and suddenly find that you’ve unwittingly spent half your life savings buying drinks for a bar full of hookers. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/26 "2013-05-29T15:57:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I meant to refer to news accounts, visible via Googling. Okay. What news accounts visible via Googling have told you that coercive sex work arrangements are less common in Thailand than they are in America, friend? > [@](#): > > But, w/r to my own personal observations, I do have enough experience to realize that forced prostitution in U.S.A. is hugely bigger than most people think. Similarly, I’d venture to guess that forced prostitution in Thailand is a rather larger problem than most comparatively-wealthy non-Thai sex tourists who had a fun couple of days in Pattaya would like to think that it is. > [@](#): > > In Thailand, many prostitutes are motivated by poverty or debt, but that isn’t what is usually meant by “forced prostitution.” Yes, what I’ve read, it seems the social structure of Thailand stacks the decks against women to the point where their non-prostitution options for employment are considerably more limited than that of their male peers and are frankly far more dire than I as a Westerner ever imagine experiencing. And, you know, that doesn’t really make me feel too excited about what a terrific town Pattaya is to have a bachelor party in. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/27 "2013-05-29T20:07:58Z")
> [@colander](#): > > (1) Okay. What news accounts visible via Googling have told you that coercive sex work arrangements are less common in Thailand than they are in America, friend? > > (2) Similarly, I’d venture to guess that forced prostitution in Thailand is a rather larger problem than most comparatively-wealthy non-Thai sex tourists who had a fun couple of days in Pattaya would like to think that it is. > > (3) Yes, what I’ve read, it seems the social structure of Thailand stacks the decks against women to the point where their non-prostitution options for employment are considerably more limited than that of their male peers and are frankly far more dire than I as a Westerner ever imagine experiencing. > > (4) And, you know, that doesn’t really make me feel too excited about what a terrific town Pattaya is to have a bachelor party in. Oh my. I encourage you to use Google if you’re sincere about wanting to educate yourself. Or even read prior SDMB threads on the topic (though you’ll then learn that America’s defenders do not include 16-year olds working for a pimp as underage or forced prostitutes because they’re not 15 or less, and because the pimp controls them via drugs or Stockholm syndrome rather than locked doors and handcuffs. :smack: ) I do not want to be drawn into a pointless debate, and I do not choose to relate enough of my biography to demonstrate experience. I will answer this one post. (1) Type “forced prostitution in America.” The third hit I see has “the FBI estimates that 100,000 minors in America now live in forced prostitution.” Search Google news as well, if you wish. I do not deny that there is forced prostitution in Thailand, but you’ll see millions fewer hits for the corresponding Google search. (2) Are you implying that my comment was based solely on “a fun couple of days in Pattaya”? I speak fluent Thai, have spent more than 25 years in the country, most of that in rural areas far from any resort. I have interviewed many hundreds of Thai people about this and other matters. (3) Thailand has changed dramatically over the 3 decades of my experience, and the status of women is now rather high. High-ranking professionals are often women. It is the woman who controls the purse in many rural families. It is true that many women are mistreated by their husbands; in fact such mistreated women often end up in Pattaya! They go not by coercion, or even by poor employment prospects elsewhere, so much as the hope of finding a Western boyfriend who will treat them better than their Thai ex-husband. (This very day, I learned a young woman I knew in the nearby town had gone to Pattaya.) (4) My post that provoked this dialog with you offered no opinion on whether you should be “excited about what a terrific town Pattaya is to have a bachelor party in.” Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/28 "2013-05-29T20:23:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … the status of women is now rather high. High-ranking professionals are often women. It is the woman who controls the purse in many rural families… In the nearest town to us, two of the highest-ranked elected officials – Subdistrict Chief and Representative to the Provincial Council – are both women. The only doctor with a private clinic here is a woman. The operator of the local underground lottery is a women. Many of the town’s businesses are run by woman. One of these is a widow who has picked an impoverished married man as her lover and set him up as businessman and Headman of a nearby village. _I_ don’t want to be accused of exaggerating in an opposite direction but stereotypes about the status of women in Thailand that might have had validity 40 years ago are now laughably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/29 "2013-05-29T20:50:04Z")
There’s also the [prime minister](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yingluck_Shinawatra). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/30 "2013-05-29T21:31:39Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > There’s also the [prime minister](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yingluck_Shinawatra). Yes … and also the Mayor of my own Provincial Capital. But I didn’t want to include women who are obviously figureheads for their brother or husband. And by now I’ve given enough details that a good detective or even Googler could locate my subdistrict … finding my exact secret location quite quickly via a door-to-door query “Where’s the loud-mouthed left-wing Farang?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/31 "2013-05-29T22:50:40Z")
Genuine question for those of you boasting about utilizing the prostitution offered in many of these places: to what lengths do you go to ensure that the lady you’re banging _isn’t_ a sex slave (or child, or whatever else)? It appears that the contention here is that the sex slavery problem isn’t as serious (or numerous) in these places as many think, but even if we accept that on its face, surely sex slavery isn’t zero, right? So, what do you do to verify you aren’t supporting the dark side? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/32 "2013-05-29T23:58:49Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Genuine question for those of you boasting about utilizing the prostitution offered in many of these places: to what lengths do you go to ensure that the lady you’re banging _isn’t_ a sex slave (or child, or whatever else)? > > It appears that the contention here is that the sex slavery problem isn’t as serious (or numerous) in these places as many think, but even if we accept that on its face, surely sex slavery isn’t zero, right? So, what do you do to verify you aren’t supporting the dark side? Devil’s advocate here, because my visceral response is to agree with you. However, how far is it logical to _expect_ someone to go to determine the amount of free will vs coercion that may exist in a person with whom they’ve become interested in a fee-based hook-up? Can anyone ever be completely sure without going to an extent that would cross over to the negative side of the ‘potential return on time invested’ ledger? Look at short-term relationships in the US between supposedly consenting adults, for example. Are we to infer from geography alone that the object of our desire probably does not have motivations of a seedy, and perhaps personally threatening nature? If so, why? It wouldn’t surprise me at all if American call girls (or whatever we want to call them) were determined to be more damaged and more susceptible to undue negative influences than their Thai counterparts in general because of the cultural differences combined with the differences in prostitution laws and enforcement in the two countries. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/33 "2013-05-30T01:51:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Oh my. I encourage you to use Google if you’re sincere about wanting to educate yourself. Or even read prior SDMB threads on the topic (though you’ll then learn that America’s defenders do not include 16-year olds working for a pimp as underage or forced prostitutes because they’re not 15 or less, and because the pimp controls them via drugs or Stockholm syndrome rather than locked doors and handcuffs. :smack: ) Oh my. None of that looks very much like a substantive cite demonstrating much of anything, sir. > [@](#): > > I do not want to be drawn into a pointless debate, and I do not choose to relate enough of my biography to demonstrate experience. I will answer this one post. I’m not really sure why you think your experiences give you such a solid grasp on the matter, since you don’t seem to be too much into backing yourself up with any kind of verifiable references or data. 🙂 > [@](#): > > (1) Type “forced prostitution in America.” The third hit I see has “the FBI estimates that 100,000 minors in America now live in forced prostitution.” Search Google news as well, if you wish. I do not deny that there is forced prostitution in Thailand, but you’ll see millions fewer hits for the corresponding Google search. And this is supposed to prove what now exactly? > [@](#): > > (2) Are you implying that my comment was based solely on “a fun couple of days in Pattaya”? I speak fluent Thai, have spent more than 25 years in the country, most of that in rural areas far from any resort. I have interviewed many hundreds of Thai people about this and other matters. Oh, your cite is that _you say so!_ Well done. > [@](#): > > (3) Thailand has changed dramatically over the 3 decades of my experience, and the status of women is now rather high. High-ranking professionals are often women. It is the woman who controls the purse in many rural families. Nothing to see here, guys! Thai women are fine because they can get jobs in companies now and also because **septimus** says so! > [@](#): > > It is true that many women are mistreated by their husbands; in fact such mistreated women often end up in Pattaya! They go not by coercion, or even by poor employment prospects elsewhere, so much as the hope of finding a Western boyfriend who will treat them better than their Thai ex-husband. So you are telling me that the phenomenon of the ultra-permissive “sin city” depends upon the existence of game-breaking levels of wealth inequality and a continuous flow of weary refugees from large areas of the country in which social norms are, by western standards, extremely oppressive towards certain disenfranchised groups? _God_, that’s hot. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/34 "2013-05-30T02:55:42Z")
Some people in this thread seem to have not the slightest clue as to the actual situation over here, which makes it very puzzling how they can get their knickers into such a twist, so to speak, in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/35 "2013-05-30T03:34:00Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > The USA makes the top ten list twice! The only country so honored. > Probably the influence of Hollywood, or a limited travel budget. Plus being a very large developed country. As it is, North America gets three, Europe gets three, Asia gets two in the “Far East” and on ein the “Middle East”, South America one ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/36 "2013-05-30T03:57:55Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Some people in this thread seem to have not the slightest clue as to the actual situation over here, which makes it very puzzling how they can get their knickers into such a twist, so to speak, in the first place. So true. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/37 "2013-05-30T04:04:35Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Can anyone ever be completely sure without going to an extent that would cross over to the negative side of the ‘potential return on time invested’ ledger? Well, I don’t have sex with prostitutes, so that significantly cuts down on the likelihood of me having sex with a forced sex worker/ child sex slave/ etc. Is it zero? I mean, no. But I think by removing the literally paying for sex element, you cut down significantly on probability. > [@colander](#): > > So you are telling me that the phenomenon of the ultra-permissive “sin city” depends upon the existence of game-breaking levels of wealth inequality and a continuous flow of weary refugees from large areas of the country in which social norms are, by western standards, extremely oppressive towards certain disenfranchised groups? > > _God_, that’s hot. Well said. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Some people in this thread seem to have not the slightest clue as to the actual situation over here, which makes it very puzzling how they can get their knickers into such a twist, so to speak, in the first place. Thanks, but my panties are just fine. I appreciate your sincere concern, though. Please, explain the actual situation to me. Certainly, I’ve never been to a Thai brothel or sex club or whatever else-- and all I know about them comes from documentaries I’ve seen and little human rights groups emails I get about how pervasive sex trafficking is with regard to that industry. As someone with a first hand account of these prostitutes and their desires, I’m curious what you find their motivations to be. Or the reality of the situation, for that matter. While there certainly are horny, sex driven, strong, independent women in this world, I have tremendous trouble believing that all— or even most-- of the women in those places are there entirely on their own free will just because they LOVE to get banged down by strange foreigners. > [@toofs](#): > > So true. You’re welcome to chime, too. Go ahead, what don’t I understand? And how do you go about ensuring you aren’t an active participant in sex trafficking? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/38 "2013-05-30T04:06:15Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Please, explain the actual situation to me. I’ve posted about it before, more than enough. You’re welcome to do a Search. (If the Board’s Search function is working. These days, you never know.) ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/39 "2013-05-30T04:08:32Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’ve posted about it before, more than enough. You’re welcome to do a Search. (If the Board’s Search function is working. These days, you never know.) It’s not, so either you can link me or explain. I’m listening. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441/40 "2013-05-30T04:12:39Z")
Sorry, I’m not in the habit of wasting effort talking to brick walls. And the Search function is working fine for me today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-no-1-pattaya-named-top-sin-city/659441.md?page=3)