# We're not going back to the dark ages, here. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 8, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305 "2000-11-08T15:16:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![momcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@momcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/momcat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/21 "2000-11-08T20:29:40Z")
Sorry, Zenster, Roe v Wade did NOT legalise abortion. It merely replaced all local control with federal. Until the Supremes decided to re-write the Constitution, the states had the authority to regulate activities with their boundaries, including abortions. Since the Fed decided to usurp the power of the states on many, many subjects, we have left our Constitution behind and now have a government that is nothing like what that great document created. ☹ All I’ve heard Bush say is that he thinks we should follow our own Constitution. Ever read it??? MomCat ---
**Author:** ![Simetra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Simetra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simetra)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/22 "2000-11-08T20:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*When any of you (perish the thought) come down with Muscular Dystrophy or Parkinson’s Disease or Alzheimer’s, think back to abolishment of stem cell research. > > If a triple threat Republican house, senate and oval office manage to overturn Roe v Wade, pray to your Lord that your daughters don’t end up bleeding to death in some back alley. > > This is not sour grapes, merely concern for the possible reversal of decades of progress in the name of sanctimonious politics. \*\* **Zenster** , I respect you and your opinions a great deal, but don’t you think this is a little… well… hyperbolic? I’ve seen this from a lot of people recently, from both sides of the fence, that are making very dramatic claims about the presidency of either candidate. I mean you no offense **Zenster** , but I just figured you wouldn’t fall into that clique. Do you, or anyone else, really believe we’ll end up with back-alley abortions, and no health care for the elderly, if Bush wins? I’m being very serious with that question, and I’d really like to know. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. Just genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![Palandine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/958977/32.png) [@Palandine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palandine)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/23 "2000-11-08T20:36:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **When any of you (perish the thought) come down with Muscular Dystrophy or Parkinson’s Disease or Alzheimer’s, think back to abolishment of stem cell research.** “It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish.” --Mother Teresa It’s not the abolishment of stem cell research, it is the abolishment of stem cell research using stem cells from aborted fetuses. Considering that just this week scientists reported that they had harvested viable stem cells from adult corpses, I fail to see why the intense need to use fetal stem cells. The umbilical cord is another source of stem cells, and research indicates that adults also have stem cells. I’m all for progress, and I’m all for stem cell research. But no, if I ever get sick, I would not want to be treated with cells taken from an aborted child. That child had just as much a right to live as I do. ---
**Author:** ![Aglarond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Aglarond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aglarond)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/24 "2000-11-08T20:50:14Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Palandine \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*I’m all for progress, and I’m all for stem cell research. But no, if I ever get sick, I would not want to be treated with cells taken from an aborted child. That child had just as much a right to live as I do. \*\* Thank you, Paladine. I was trying to figure out the best way to respond when I saw your post. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/25 "2000-11-08T21:06:48Z")
Zenster is using the time honored Democratic tactic of scaring voters into a decision. This may work with the under-educated populace (59% of people nationwide with less than high school eductaion voted for Gore, per CNN exit polls), but it won’t fly here. I don’t recall any of these “issues” arising during the Reagan administration, though similar charges were leveled then. I consider myself an independant. I cast my vote based on issues and individuals. Glurge like Zen is spouting serves no purpose except to avoid the issues and confuse some voters. I will not vote for any candidate who chooses to campaign this way. ---
**Author:** ![Gunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gunslinger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/26 "2000-11-08T21:23:51Z")
I hope Bush wins. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/27 "2000-11-08T21:38:26Z")
No scare tactics here, just a genuine concern for continuing progress. All of you who are responding are most likely fairly well to do as compared to a lot of the population. I’m not trying to categorize all of you as white elitists. I am merely trying to point out that most of you would be able to find **your** daughter an abortion with or without Roe v Wade. How about the poor and uneducated minority women for whom childbearing instantly eliminates higher education or career? Their choices will be much more limited. A back alley awaits many of them in a world without Roe v Wade. As to stem cell research, hooray that they have begun to harvest stem cells from the bone marrow of adults and infants’ umbilici. Just pause to think if the initial research had not been done to prove what a valuable method it is due to all of the compunctions you cite. We would be almost a full decade behind in this momentous medical advance. All of you would probably be amazed to know how I feel about abortion. I remain adamant in my support for it until we have a political system where power is shared equally among men and women. The “good old boy” club that is called Capitol Hill is by no means such a body. Until women have political **and** socio-economic parity with men, I refuse to participate in the overturning of Roe v Wade. That a group consisting largely of wealthy white men have deemed themselves the arbiters of women’s rights is repugnant at best. I will leave you with the most cogent comment about abortion that I have ever seen. It comes from a bumpersticker; “Surely we can do better than abortion” ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/28 "2000-11-08T21:54:05Z")
Zenster, the legislative branch (House, Senate) is almost evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans (with a few independents). Even if they voted straight-party, there wouldn’t be the two-thirds majority needed to question the inquiry of abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/29 "2000-11-08T21:56:52Z")
Zenster, the legislative branch (House, Senate) is almost evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans (with a few independents). Even if they voted straight-party, there wouldn’t be the two-thirds majority needed to question the inquiry of abortion. Added note: As cruel as this may sound, if those “poor, uneducated” women would think of the consequences of their sex, there wouldn’t be a need for as many of those abortions. I’m sorry, but, “It felt good, I did it, and now my unborn child’s going to pay for my 7 Minutes in Heaven,” doesn’t cut it for me. Prostitution is a completely different story. So are rape and life/death situations. ---
**Author:** ![Palandine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/958977/32.png) [@Palandine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palandine)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/30 "2000-11-08T21:56:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **All of you who are responding are most likely fairly well to do as compared to a lot of the population.** And I should imagine you are too, but you don’t see that perhaps you’re being elitist as well. For what it’s worth, Zenster, if you want to play this game, I’m probably worse off than you financially. I’m also a woman, 29 years old, and a feminist. I will NEVER have an abortion myself, and if I had a daughter who was pregnant, well, she’d have a choice to make, but I’d let her know her family’s standards of right and wrong and I’d certainly share your final quote “surely we can do better than abortion.” > [@](#): > > How about the poor and uneducated minority women for whom childbearing instantly eliminates higher education or career? Their choices will be much more limited. A back alley awaits many of them in a world without Roe v Wade. Any evidence for this fear-mongering? Obviously, child-bearing makes things more difficult, but I have a number of poor friends who overcame that adversity. Your feminism seems a rather sterile thing, Zenster–women can only become equal by being like men. I could not disagree more. Women have any number of choices, Zenster–it’s not just the workhouse or the scalpel. > [@](#): > > Just pause to think if the initial research had not been done to prove what a valuable method it is due to all of the compunctions you cite. We would be almost a full decade behind in this momentous medical advance. And German doctors in the concentration camps learned a lot about how to treat hypothermia by experimenting on the inmates. Again, what seems to be the problem with using stem cells from adults? > [@](#): > > All of you would probably be amazed to know how I feel about abortion. I remain adamant in my support for it until we have a political system where power is shared equally among men and women. At the risk of starting a Great Debate, I fail to see what one has to do with the other. I am passionate about women getting their full say in government, but I do not see the connection between the achievement of that goal and the enshrining of a right to abort one’s children. > [@](#): > > That a group consisting largely of wealthy white men have deemed themselves the arbiters of women’s rights is repugnant at best. And yet you, a white man of undetermined economic status, also feel free to act as an arbiter of women’s rights. > [@](#): > > “Surely we can do better than abortion” At least we can agree on something. As a feminist, when I think that the best NOW can offer me to show me my equality with men is the ability to get rid of my children, I cringe. Women, ALL women, deserve better. ---
**Author:** ![momcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@momcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/momcat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/31 "2000-11-08T22:07:23Z")
“Well-to-do”??? Just slightly over 3 years ago, I was so poor I qualified for every welfare program available to women with children. Instead of taking free money, I worked my butt off and built a career for myself and now my children and I are reasonably comfortable. I’ve been poor. I know what it’s like facing life with no skills and 2 small children to support. I pinched pennies so hard Lincoln was IN the Memorial!! (Look at a penny, both sides. 🙂 ) I taught myself skills that employeers pay good money for. Nothing special, just another computer geek. But I got here on my own, thank you very much!! And now I’m supposed to have forgotten what it was like having to live with the wolf at my door?? Please!!! Ever had to worry about whether or not the fridge would hold the cold so the milk wouldn’t spoil until Thursday when you might get enough money to get the power turned back on?? Been there, done that! MomCat ---
**Author:** ![mblackwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@mblackwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mblackwell)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/32 "2000-11-08T22:18:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > All of you who are responding are most likely fairly well to do as compared to a lot of the population. HA! I live in a single parent home and my family can just barely pay the bills. We have had our utilities turned off several times due to nonpayment. I voted for Bush because I agree with almost all of his positions, but I do think protecting the environment is important. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/33 "2000-11-08T22:28:21Z")
Wait until your children are starving in the gutter, and your grandmother is selling herself on the street to replace her Social Security! And the secret police drag of those who dare to pos ---
**Author:** ![Aglarond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Aglarond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aglarond)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/34 "2000-11-08T22:48:07Z")
The main reason I voted for Bush is because no matter how screwed up our government has become, and no matter how much bull I have to put up with, I still believe in the principles this country was founded on. This was the first country where anything was possible, if you were only willing to work hard enough. You didn’t have to conquer or destroy, you could earn. I’m 3rd generation American. My family came over here from Germany dirt poor, and have been poor a couple of times since. I’m proud to say that they never took any handouts. When things went bad, they worked harder. Those values passed down to me. Few people know about this. Not even my parents do. But I lost my job a few years ago, I didn’t go to the unemployment office. I didn’t go to my parents. I took no handouts. I went to work at freakin’ Burger King just so I could pay my utilities and I looked for a new job on my days off. It was only 3 weeks, but it was 3 weeks of sacrifice. Imagine going from $35k a year to fast food. I didn’t go to movies. I didn’t go out to eat. Ramen noodles were my best friends. After 3 weeks I was able to land a new job paying more than the one before BK. I’m happy. Not because I have a great job and can afford things I want. I could take handouts and get things I want. What makes me happy is knowing that everything I have, I earned. That means more to me than anything else. And I have just as much respect for that family barely getting by, who are trying their hardest to overcome those bad times, as I do for those multimillionaires in their big offices. Because I am a firm believer that if those families stick to those principles, they’re as well of as I am. I feel as lucky as those making more than me because I didn’t have to rely on anyone else to give me what I have. Money doesn’t buy happiness for me. Work does. And that is why I cannot support a party that, to me, seems to cater to the lazy. Momcat, I congratulate you on what you’ve done. And MBlackwell, you’ll get through it all. I firmly believe that and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. I guess what it all comes down to is that the Republican party stands for those ideals that I just described. And, to me, those are the greatest ideals that exist in this country and those are the ideals that built this country from the ground up. Yes, our founding fathers had some screwups, but I believe in what they intended to accomplish. And it makes me sick when I see, everyday, people fighting those beliefs. We didn’t become, what I consider, the greatest country in the world by sitting on our asses waiting for everything to come to us. We worked for it, and I always will.I didn’t mean for this post to turn into this. I just get so worked up. All I can do for right now is sit back and let democracy do its thing tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/35 "2000-11-08T22:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by momcat \* > \*\*Just the thought of “President Gore” makes me sick to my stomach!!! > > The man thinks our civilization is a sin aganst nature!! He wants to do away with most of what makes the US great for the benefit of snail darters and spotted owls! > > And how anybody could vote for someone who lies so easily and fabricates even his own life is beyond me!! And don’t give me that old “All politicans lie” crapola!!! Most politicians at least tell the truth about what lullaby their mothers sang to them!! And, don’t forget, on the afternoon of Clinton’s impeachment, Gore declared him to be one of our greated presidents ever!!! YUK!!! > > Bush has a great record in Texas dealing with some of the same problems that the nation faces. And while Gore was flunking out of divinity school and law school at Vanderbilt Bush was getting his MBA at Harvard!!! So, who’s the dumb one?? How many classes do you have to fail (if you’re a Democrat) in order to be labeled “dumb”?? > > Sorry for the long post/rant but I’m going nuts waiting, too!! > > MomCat > > (Make that **11** Bush supporters! 🙂 ) > > \*\* Um…yeah…it’s not like Bush LIES or anything! It’s not like he takes credit for laws he didn’t pass, but actually tried to stop. It’s not like he doesn’t have a record of substance abuse and drunk driving… Oh, Bush is pure as the driven snow… ---
**Author:** ![rockstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockstar)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/36 "2000-11-08T23:02:07Z")
I am 16 but I would have voted for Bush (and no, it’s not because that’s who my mama voted for). I favor smaller government and agree with Bush over many more issues than Al Gore. And it may be true that all politicians lie, but not all are compulsive liars like Gore. And both Gore (and Lieberman)have seemed to switch their positions on many issues when it would be politically convinent. Here’s hopin’ that Bush wins. ---
**Author:** ![Aglarond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Aglarond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aglarond)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/37 "2000-11-08T23:08:54Z")
I have a feeling we’re getting really close to having this thread closed. Please, let’s try to keep personal attacks out of this. This is one of the few pro Bush threads, so I’d like to see it stay open for while. I think it’s possible to speak opinions without getting into a fight. Thanks everybody. And I just reread my last post. Sorry about how jumbled it was. It was kind of a spur of the moment thing. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/38 "2000-11-08T23:51:35Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Palandine \* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > …Just pause to think if the initial research had not been done to prove what a valuable method it is due to all of the compunctions you cite. We would be almost a full decade behind in this momentous medical advance. > > And German doctors in the concentration camps learned a lot about how to treat hypothermia by experimenting on the inmates. Again, what seems to be the problem with using stem cells from adults? > > \*\* That is a disgusting comparison to make. Scientists using the cells from a body that is already dead (gosh, just like an organ transplant, are you against those too?) in no way compares to the hideous activities of the Nazis. No problem with using adult stem cells, we just happened to discover them in embryoes (the most logical place to look).\*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > All of you would probably be amazed to know how I feel about abortion. I remain adamant in my support for it until we have a political system where power is shared equally among men and women. > > At the risk of starting a Great Debate, I fail to see what one has to do with the other. I am passionate about women getting their full say in government, but I do not see the connection between the achievement of that goal and the enshrining of a right to abort one’s children. > > \*\* I am supporting the empowerment of women, not the slaughter of unborns. I merely wish for women to have all choices available to them and nothing less. Women have had to endure repression for far too long. When parity is achieved, then we can move on to discussing the ethics of abortion.\*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > That a group consisting largely of wealthy white men have deemed themselves the arbiters of women’s rights is repugnant at best. > > And yet you, a white man of undetermined economic status, also feel free to act as an arbiter of women’s rights. > > **I seek no control over women’s rights. I wish only to assure the absence of repression. Is this too difficult for you to understand?** > > > [@](#): > > > > “Surely we can do better than abortion” > > At least we can agree on something. As a feminist, when I think that the best NOW can offer me to show me my equality with men is the ability to get rid of my children, I cringe. Women, ALL women, deserve better. \*\* I will not even go into the faulty logic that you have employed in that last observation. ---
**Author:** ![jcgmoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@jcgmoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcgmoi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/39 "2000-11-09T00:47:10Z")
I’m glad to contribute to a pro-Bush thread with a suggestion and a hope for the future. Let’s assume Bush wins the Florida recount and is therefore our next president. This victory will give all Republican partisans a great opportunity to demonstrate the fairness and magnanimity they are known for, especially in their responses to Pres. Clinton and his family these last 8 years; please don’t let the giddiness of the moment deflect you from showing the same devotion to Bush, his wife, and daughters. Let me remind you all of what I and the country expect from you. Find a Bush scandal and insist it be investigated. Ignore the results. Blame a coverup. Call talk radio to vent. Keep dialing. Constantly point up that Bush lacks a mandate, in fact lacks a rationale, for governing, because he failed to win 50% + 1 of the popular vote. Do not let a day go by without noting, preferably loudly, that as a draft-dodger Bush lacks legitimacy to be commander in chief. Be sure to learn the latest jokes about Laura Bush’s sexual orientation. Laugh uproariously. Pass them on. Indulge the Bush daughters (twice the fun here!) with knowing smirks about **their** sexual proclivities. Comment to your friends about their perceived gawkiness and lack of loveliness. Be inventive. Let no inconsistency go unchallenged. If you don’t see that $1.2 trillion start flowing early in 2001, let the man know it. Talk about how betrayed you feel. Feel rage. These ideas should get you started. I know you will have many good ideas of your own. You’ve shown in the past you have what it takes. ---
**Author:** ![Nacho4Sara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Nacho4Sara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nacho4Sara)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305/40 "2000-11-09T01:05:13Z")
I’d vote for Lewis Black in a heartbeat. > [@](#): > > The thought of having zero respect for the highest office in the world for yet another 4 years just makes me sad. > > If Bush loses this election…I will be truly let down by the American people Well, that’s exactly how I will feel if Bush wins. I must quibble with this: > [@](#): > > And somehow I just don’t think that after 4 years of Bush we’re going to have women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and a revival of the Jim Crow laws. I used to be a Democrat, but that constant fear-mongering is just too much. Jesus, folks, we’re all Americans here. Well, no, that’s not what is going to happen. Duh. But perhaps another 144 prisoners will be executed. That alone is enough to make me vote for Gore. Some people get angry over abortion; my issue is the death penalty and gun control. > [@](#): > > I’ve been poor. I know what it’s like facing life with no skills and 2 small children to support. I pinched pennies so hard Lincoln was IN the Memorial!! (Look at a penny, both sides. ) I taught myself skills that employeers pay good money for. Nothing special, just another computer geek. But I got here on my own, thank you very much!! And now I’m supposed to have forgotten what it was like having to live with the wolf at my door?? Please!!! I have been there too. My mom raised two children without a college education and also supported my father’s drinking habit at the same time. Sometimes we needed welfare and went on it. This was after the penny barrel ran out (we rolled dimes and pennies to buy groceries), after the electric was turned off, after the big wheel of government cheese went bad. We needed help and I am so glad it was there. Aglarond, you were out of a job for THREE weeks. There are people without a college education, without the ability to recieve one, without clothes to wear to an interview, who are out of jobs for years. It seems more elitist to me to claim that you are better than anyone because you didn’t go on welfare. Did you put that on your resume? There is a ongoing cycle of poverty. People who are born into it have so much difficulty getting out (speaking from experiance). It’s not an easy struggle, and how dare anyone, especially those born with a surfeit, knock down someone who tries their hardest but will never come out on top because of the life they were born into. I do not understand why it is wrong to stereotype blacks, Jews, gays, and every other minority under the sun, but it’s okay that we all have this mental image of fat, slovenly, belching heffers eating Doritos with government money. That is simply not the truth. I will say it until I die - for every 300 people who abuse welfare, there is only family that needs it, and this makes it worthwhile. It’s wonderful that you did not go on it, but what works for you will not work for everyone else. Aglarond - you talk about the concepts our country was based upon. As another third-generation American whose grandparents immigrated from Germany, I have to say that I don’t consider hard work to be a basis of our country. Ben Franklin is thought responsible for popularizing the common work day, but it is nowhere in the Constitution. However, the whole idea of us all being equal - that is included. I like to think the reason this country is so great stems from the idea that we all equal, that no one man is better than another, that we all have equal access to what we need, be it food or clothing or shelter. I don’t think Bush will turn this country into a totalitarian dictatorship, but I do believe, if he is at all effective (which I doubt highly), he will pass legislation and such that will set back the freedom we all cherish so highly. That alone is enough to make me forgive Gore’s lies. Nothing is so black and white as you are making it. Momcat - this is MPSIMS, not the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-not-going-back-to-the-dark-ages-here/40305.md?page=3)