# We're Pretty Much Fucked, Aren't We? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446 "2006-09-12T18:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/1 "2006-09-12T18:37:39Z")
I’ve been listening to the latest episode of Harry Shearer’s [_Le Show_](http://www.kcrw.com/show/ls), which is a slightly more serious version of _The Daily Show_. The segment where he reads from various newspapers is pretty much depressing. For example, one article he reads quotes [a retiring Army General who claims](http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060909/NEWS/609090319/1002/NEWS01) > [@](#): > > Long before the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld forbade military strategists to develop plans for securing a post-war Iraq, the retiring commander of the Army Transportation Corps said Thursday. > > In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said “he would fire the next person” who talked about the need for a post-war plan. Frankly, I’m at a loss for words. I can’t even begin to fathom the logic behind thinking that we **wouldn’t** need a post-war plan. In digging around on the net, I’ve stumbled across something which might give [some explaination as to why Rummy had this attitude.](http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=842&Itemid=135) > [@](#): > > This plan – long pre-dating 9/11 – included astronomical hikes in the military budget; invading Iraq and establishing a “permanent role” for a “substantial American force presence in the Gulf;” planting a “worldwide network of forward operating bases;” gutting arms control treaties; and making “regime change” a primary focus of American policy. The PNAC plan did note that it could take decades to get the American people to accept these “revolutionary” changes; unless, of course, the United States was struck by “some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.” > [@](#): > > To be sure, Peters acknowledges that “correcting” these borders “may be impossible. For now.” Nevertheless, he assures us that his admittedly draconian adjustments are the only way we will ever see “a more peaceful Middle East.” And in any case, he says, “given time — and the inevitable attendant bloodshed — new and natural borders will emerge.” Why? Because of a “dirty little secret from 5,000 years of history: Ethnic cleansing works.” > > Thus from the warmongers’ stated goal of freedom for all nations we’ve now arrived at a savage hacking at their sovereignty, with enforced “corrections” and ethnic cleansing “from the Bosporus to the Indus.” I surely hope that this _isnt’_ true, that our country is being ran by people who hoped to one day to be able to literally carve up the world in the manner they saw fit, and were then, by sheer chance, handed that opportunity. Shearer reads from several more news articles (almost all of them from major newspapers/news services and _not_ from “questionable” sources, BTW), but after reading the second article I’ve linked to, I just don’t have the desire to dig them up. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/2 "2006-09-12T18:47:30Z")
How does the mere fact that our leadership wants to commit horrific heinous actions against some other country make _us_ fucked? When we bombed Hiroshima, it didn’t fuck us up, it fucked _them_ up. Sure, we’re going to be associated wether we like it or not with the actions horrific heinous that our ledership commits, but that’s not quite the same as being the victims thereof. Arguably, we’re the lucky ones. We’re not fucked. We’re the fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/3 "2006-09-12T18:56:30Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] How does the mere fact that our leadership wants to commit horrific heinous actions against some other country make _us_ fucked? When we bombed Hiroshima, it didn’t fuck us up, it fucked _them_ up.. [/QUOTE] Because when Hiroshima was blow’d up those nice Japanese chaps had the decency to stay down, of course. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/4 "2006-09-12T19:03:56Z")
Thank goodness another American has finally clocked this. I have been touting this on the boards for about three years now: [Did the PNAC really hope for a “Pearl Harbor event”?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=197540) (July 2003). > [@](#): > > I surely hope that this _isnt’_ true, that our country is being ran by people who hoped to one day to be able to literally carve up the world in the manner they saw fit, and were then, by sheer chance, handed that opportunity. It is. [Read the signatories to the statement of principles of the PNAC](http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm). Recognise any names there? Also, bear in mind that [Rebuilding America’s Defenses](http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf) (pdf from the horse’s mouth) is a toned-down version of a far more inflammatory and tyrranical document, only part of which has been leaked, the name of which currently eludes me. [Here’s how RAD looks to one non-American](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3202131#post3202131). You are in the hands of some very dangerous people. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/5 "2006-09-12T19:07:33Z")
I had never heard of Chris Floyd, so I read his bio. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/6 "2006-09-12T19:11:35Z")
It’s long since gotten to the point that I don’t know whether I’d rather that the current administration were doing what it does on purpose (raw ugly evil) or via stumbling into things (awesome levels of stupidity). I think for a long time I was wishing for evil-but-competent but now I may be leaning towards dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks… problem is, outcomewise I’m starting to think it just doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/7 "2006-09-12T19:11:36Z")
Despite the inevitable comparisons to Vietnam, I originally thought that the Iraq invasion was more analogous to the Korea Conflict. But as time goes on, I progressively see a more accurate comparison to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, including the increasingly tenuous justifications. The major difference, of course, is that we are the invading force (along with our handful of allies) struggling against a backlash of religious fundamentalism rather than the instigator of said backlash. I suspect the real reason (if in fact the statement is true) that Rumsfeld forebade discussion of a post-war plan was that any reasonable would be far more expensive and time-consuming than the public would accept. The original claims–that the “war” would be over in weeks and that the US and allies would extract inside of a year–was transparent nonsense from the very beginning. We’re fucked because we have invested hundreds of billions (with hundreds to come) in a war that will have neither a positive conclusion nor reflect well on American foriegn policy. The Iraqis are fucked because the various ethnic and religious conflicts will continue unabated until minority groups are slaughtered or forcibly emmigrated. Saddam and Co. get fucked because, well, they’re despotic fuckers who deserve it. That’s a sort of justice, but hardly worth the price, both in dollars or the political fallout. We’ve long since expended any goodwill we had in that part of the world. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/8 "2006-09-12T19:43:25Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] The major difference, of course, is that we are the invading force (along with our handful of allies) struggling against a backlash of religious fundamentalism rather than the instigator of said backlash. [/QUOTE] No, Islamic fundamentalism was not an important force in Iraq - until we took over. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/9 "2006-09-12T19:52:57Z")
Yep. We’re fucked. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/10 "2006-09-12T19:55:26Z")
There is no greater testimonial to the value of democracy than the opportunity before us. We can start rebuilding. Let them all, friends and enemies, see what is possible, what can be done. To do that, we simply must…_must_… take the House this fall. The Senate, if possible, but we have to have some base to operate. What terrifies the Bushiviks more than anything is the prospect of having all thier lies exposed. What we’ve seen so far is enough to gag a maggot. You can bet yer sweet patootie there’s more, and sunlight is the best disinfectant. Whisper the word “subpoena” in their ear and they crap thier trousers. The real work, the heavy lifting isn’t on “my” side of the political debate. The left is pretty much on board. We need the honest conservatives, the Barry Goldwaters of tomorrow. I haven’t the least smidgeon of doubt if he were with us, he would be with us. “ **'Luc** , you commie bastard, would you mind pushing my wheelchair towards the barricades?” “It would be an honor. Sir.” Those that won’t join from honor and patriotism can be frightened, they will demonstrate the behavior of rodents confronted with a nautical emergency. Talk to everyone you know. Talk to people you don’t know. Especially talk to people who don’t vote. America needs them, more than ever before. Because unless there is a massive repudiation, a complete massacre…the Bushiviks will declare victory. If they hold onto power by the slimmest of margins, they will declare that to be an unshakeable mandate, an unalloyed endorsement. We must not permit this. There are any number of ways to serve your country. This the most urgent, this is what _must_ be done. We can go back to squabbling about the details later. Patriotism demands nothing less. If the people lead, the leaders will follow or perish, therein lies the glory of democracy. Its gonna get ugly. Its gonna be “smear, fear, and queer”. Don’t flinch, and bite down, bite down to the bone! _ **Sic 'em!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/11 "2006-09-12T20:02:19Z")
Bravo, **luci**! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/12 "2006-09-12T20:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] You are in the hands of some very dangerous people. [/QUOTE] I know I’m probably going to catch a ration of shit for what I’m about to say, but. . . The other night I said to my husband, “I wonder if this is how the Jews in Germany felt, in the very early rise of Hitler, just as he was growing in popularity and power – that impending sense that something sinister was very, very wrong, but not only unable to specifically identify it, let alone convince others of its evilness, but worse still, completely impotent to actually do anything to stop it.” He agreed, and added that it was likely the same even for the average, common non-Jewish German, feeling the darkness that their government was bringing, desperately not wanting it, but also being utterly powerless to prevent the doom that was about to befall them. \*\*No, I’m not saying Bush = Hitler! \*\* But I cannot escape the terrifying feeling in the pit of my gut that the power-hungriness of this administration, the desire of some of its top members to actively pursue an agenda of “American global leadership,” their intent to “boldly and purposefully promot[e] American principles abroad,” the subterfuge and the lies created to “sell” the invasion of a sovereign nation (who next?), Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, secret prisons throughout Europe, and so on, is, at least on some level, hauntingly reminiscent of a very ugly time in the world’s not so distant past. These fucking people scare the ever-living shit out of me. I just pray that I’m completely wrong in my fears. The consequences of being right are just too dire to contemplate. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/13 "2006-09-12T20:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] \*\*No, I’m not saying Bush = Hitler! \*\* [/QUOTE] You know, having just compared Bush to Hitler, saying you’re not doing so doesn’t really mean much. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/14 "2006-09-12T20:13:47Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Those that won’t join from honor and patriotism can be frightened, they will demonstrate the behavior of rodents confronted with a nautical emergency. Talk to everyone you know. Talk to people you don’t know. Especially talk to people who don’t vote. America needs them, more than ever before. Because unless there is a massive repudiation, a complete massacre…the Bushiviks will declare victory. If they hold onto power by the slimmest of margins, they will declare that to be an unshakeable mandate, an unalloyed endorsement. We must not permit this. There are any number of ways to serve your country. This the most urgent, this is what _must_ be done. We can go back to squabbling about the details later. Patriotism demands nothing less. If the people lead, the leaders will follow or perish, therein lies the glory of democracy. Its gonna get ugly. Its gonna be “smear, fear, and queer”. Don’t flinch, and bite down, bite down to the bone! _ **Sic 'em!** _ [/QUOTE] **'luci** , it’s people like you who help temper my fears and inspire me to hope that we really can find our way out of the darkness. My jungle cape is off to you, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/15 "2006-09-12T20:18:51Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There is no greater testimonial to the value of democracy than the opportunity before us. We can start rebuilding. Let them all, friends and enemies, see what is possible, what can be done. To do that, we simply must…_must_… take the House this fall. The Senate, if possible, but we have to have some base to operate. What terrifies the Bushiviks more than anything is the prospect of having all thier lies exposed. What we’ve seen so far is enough to gag a maggot. You can bet yer sweet patootie there’s more, and sunlight is the best disinfectant. Whisper the word “subpoena” in their ear and they crap thier trousers. [/QUOTE] This is why I predict that the 2006 elections will be the most crooked elections to date. The Pubbies desperately need to hang onto the House to avoid those awful subpoenas they fear. They can’t afford to lose it. But it’s unlikely that they can come by the numbers honestly, since the Pubbies have stunk up the place so much that even some of the idjits who voted for them in 2004 can smell the skunk. And so they will cheat. If the Dem leadership has any sense at all, they will deploy massive numbers of lawyers, poll-watchers, private investigators, investigative journalists, and whatnot (father rapers from the Group W bench, maybe) to every state where elections are close, because sure as shit Rove’s gonna have his minions down there, cheating like hell. It’s probably the best shot at catching them in the act … massively … that we will ever have. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/16 "2006-09-12T20:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] The original claims–that the “war” would be over in weeks and that the US and allies would extract inside of a year–was transparent nonsense from the very beginning. [/QUOTE] sadly, no, it wasn’t “Transparent nonsense” for many. To some of us, yes, but their answer was always stuff about mushroom clouds, hearts and flowers. and those same individuals still have the audacity to claim that they still know best. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/17 "2006-09-12T20:48:30Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] You know, having just compared Bush to Hitler, saying you’re not doing so doesn’t really mean much. [/QUOTE] You know, it’s entirely possible to draw comparisons _“on some level”_, without concluding that Bush is exactly equal to Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fromage_A_Trois)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/18 "2006-09-12T20:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I know I’m probably going to catch a ration of shit for what I’m about to say, but. . . … I just pray that I’m completely wrong in my fears. The consequences of being right are just too dire to contemplate. [/QUOTE] Of course, I’m not living in the US, but your post reminded me of when I was in Boston 2 years ago - there were posters on the subway saying “Sometimes Peace means having to speak up”. I think in the real world, these were to ask you to be alert for unattended bags etc - but in my mind I had a little glimpse of what you’re describing, and the translation “Spy on your neighbour for hints of unAmericanism”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/19 "2006-09-12T20:53:22Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] You know, having just compared Bush to Hitler, saying you’re not doing so doesn’t really mean much. [/QUOTE] She didn’t say she wasn’t comparing Bush to Hitler; she was saying that she was not claiming they are exactly the same. Whether you like it or whether you don’t, those are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Alma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alma)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446/20 "2006-09-12T20:54:50Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] You know, having just compared Bush to Hitler, saying you’re not doing so doesn’t really mean much. [/QUOTE] I think a person can describe feelings of impending doom with a simile, without making the two equal. As an example, I can understand the religious zealot’s fervor, because I have felt strongly and unequivocally right about certain things. That doesn’t make me a religious zealot. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-pretty-much-fucked-arent-we/372446.md?page=2)