# Were Southern Democrats More Liberal Before the Depression? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750 "2012-05-22T20:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/1 "2012-05-22T20:01:24Z")
Check out the first two charts on this page from the [VoteView Blog](http://voteview.com/blog/). They chart the liberal/conservative behavior of congresscritters going back to 1879. While I’m not convinced their methodology is completely sound I do find it odd that it shows that in both the House and Senate Southern Democrats were more liberal than Northern Democrats before the Great Depression. I’ve never heard anything like this. Is this true and if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/2 "2012-05-22T20:33:34Z")
I’d say it’s impossible to evaluate without knowing what issues are being tracked and how the authors are mapping them onto our current liberal-conservative divide. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/3 "2012-05-22T23:08:06Z")
It depends how you’re looking at liberal/conservative. There was a strong streak of economic populism in the South at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. I’d also think that is’ possible that after World War II, civil rights issues started getting counted more heavily, and Southern Democrats’ opposition to equal rights for blacks started getting them counted as more conservative, whereas, say, in 1920, that issue wasn’t really on the political radar and wouldn’t have counted to help rank them. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/4 "2012-05-23T00:04:38Z")
According to Paul Krugman part of the political shift that led to southern whites going from democrats to republicans was the fact that the south industrialized and had a higher GDP. As a result they didn’t need the welfare state programs they needed in the past. But the northeast of the US seems like it has always been a source of progressivism. So I don’t know how the south would ever be more progressive on economic issues than the northeast (which makes up a big part of the north). But I’m not a history major. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/5 "2012-05-23T00:32:11Z")
When LBJ signed the Voting Rights Act, he famously declared, “We [the Democrats] have just lost the South for a generation.” When Nixon won with his “Southern Strategy” in 1972, picking up a lot of states and voters who had gone for George Wallace’ independent bid in 1968, he started a migration of white Southern conservative Dems to the GOP, and they now dominate the party; while liberal “Rockefeller Republicans” migrated to the Dems or were marginalized entirely. We now, for the first time in our history, have a party system that roughly maps onto the left-right ideological divide. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/6 "2012-05-23T02:31:22Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But the northeast of the US seems like it has always been a source of progressivism. So I don’t know how the south would ever be more progressive on economic issues than the northeast (which makes up a big part of the north). But I’m not a history major. Well, the northeast was everything the Populist movement was fighting against…Wall Street, the big banks and the big corporations, ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/7 "2012-05-23T04:38:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, the northeast was everything the Populist movement was fighting against…Wall Street, the big banks and the big corporations, Right. [Populism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populist_movement_(United_States,_19th_Century)#Populism) and (the old meaning of) [Progressivism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_era) were entirely different movements, ideologically and demographically as well as regionally. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/8 "2012-05-23T04:50:18Z")
That being said, there was a Progressive movement in the South and some pretty famous southern Progressive leaders; Hoke Smith of Georgia and the two sponsors of the Glass-Steagal Act, Carter Glass (from Virginia) and Henry Steagal (of Alabama) come to mind, as does Robert Latham Owen of Oklahoma. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/9 "2012-05-23T05:24:42Z")
I put this here in GD because I thought it would be controversial but I don’t see anything to argue about. Some thought provoking stuff though. Thanks for the replies. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/10 "2012-05-23T05:33:30Z")
Part of the issue is the demise of the small farmer. Rural America, not just the south, used to be far more left-leaning on economic issues back when 160 acre farms were the rule. The small-time farmers were at the mercy of big corporations (banks, railroads, farm suppliers) every bit as much as an urban factory worker was to his employer, if not more. After the depression and after the war, the farms consolidated into larger-scale agribusiness concerns and the progressive economic causes became a lot less relevant to the rural Americans who hadn’t hightailed it to the cities. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/11 "2012-05-23T13:27:32Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I’d say it’s impossible to evaluate without knowing what issues are being tracked and how the authors are mapping them onto our current liberal-conservative divide. Totally agree. How did the authors define support for low tariffs in the 1880’s? Southern Democrats were usually anti-tariff. Was this a left-wing or right-wing position? What about civil service reform? What about prohibition? As late as the 1890’s, there were attempts to overturn election results from Southern states on grounds of black disenfranchisement, and pass voting rights laws. Were these included in the tabulation, with pro-voting rights being the “liberal” position? (Even though in that era it usually coincided with hard-money, small-government conservatism.) Without knowing these things one cannot make an intelligent assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/12 "2012-05-23T16:03:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That being said, there was a Progressive movement in the South and some pretty famous southern Progressive leaders; Hoke Smith of Georgia and the two sponsors of the Glass-Steagal Act, Carter Glass (from Virginia) and Henry Steagal (of Alabama) come to mind, as does Robert Latham Owen of Oklahoma. And Huey Long. ---
**Author:** ![AndyLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndyLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyLee)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/13 "2012-05-23T16:16:05Z")
I think people were less liberal before the depression. But really if you read any history you will see that discrimination, crime, sexual abuse, drugs were all there before. It kills me when I read about people legalizing drugs, and most of them don’t realize there was a time when things like marijuana, heroin, and such were in fact legal. And it was the problems associated with them that made them reclassified as illegal. Look at old magazines and newspapers and you can see, it’s mostly times that change not people. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/14 "2012-05-24T04:17:12Z")
> [@AndyLee](#): > > I think people were less liberal before the depression. But really if you read any history you will see that discrimination, crime, sexual abuse, drugs were all there before. It kills me when I read about people legalizing drugs, and most of them don’t realize there was a time when things like marijuana, heroin, and such were in fact legal. And it was the problems associated with them that made them reclassified as illegal. Most of which were highly exaggerated to prey on the public’s paranoia, see here for example: [http://www.adrugwarcarol.com/](http://www.adrugwarcarol.com/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/15 "2012-05-24T04:23:56Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > And Huey Long. Who took on the Standard Oil men And whipped their ass Just like he promised he’d do? Ain’t no Standard Oil men gonna run this state Gonna be run by little folks like me and you Kingfish, Kingfish Friend of the working man Kingfish, Kingfish The Kingfish gonna save this land – Randy Newman ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/16 "2012-05-24T04:44:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Most of which were highly exaggerated to prey on the public’s paranoia, see here for example: [http://www.adrugwarcarol.com/](http://www.adrugwarcarol.com/) That’s kinda like a Jack Chick pro-legalization comic. Interesting for sure, but freakin’ me out a little that you posted it **Qin**. I didn’t expect that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-southern-democrats-more-liberal-before-the-depression/622750/17 "2012-05-24T05:24:47Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > That’s kinda like a Jack Chick pro-legalization comic. > > Interesting for sure, but freakin’ me out a little that you posted it **Qin**. I didn’t expect that. Try [this one,](http://www.ep.tc/problems/29/02.html) then!