# Were the German codes broken by the Enigma machine coherent German? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367 "2025-12-03T14:58:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/101 "2025-12-07T13:15:34Z")
ETA: Largely ninja’ed by @TokyoBayer just above. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Why would an Allied radio operator tell someone they thought was Japanese to get off the channel instead of bringing it to the attention of a translator or intelligence officer? In a big enough war almost every stupid thing we can imagine happened at least once. Now whether it got documented, and whether the whole string of stupid things needed to make a good “just so” story really happened? That’s a _much_ heavier lift. I put no credence in this particular “Get off the radio!” story. But have radio operators from opposing sides gotten into verbal abuse on each other’s radio nets? Of _course_ they have. Heck, just keying the mike or babbling on the other side’s frequency is a primitive form of EW jamming. That works plenty well enough in a local area where everybody’s radios are of comparable power and (low) tech. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/102 "2025-12-07T13:50:12Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I put no credence in this particular “Get off the radio!” story It could have happened, as you said it was a huge war and stupid things happened. What I’m calling bullshit is the idea that this was the incident which made Japan realize that it was Navajo. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/103 "2025-12-07T14:22:22Z")
That story is based on how inconceivable the teller thinks it is that there were actual linguists or even just visitors to the US Southwest living in Japan during the war. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/104 "2025-12-07T14:46:51Z")
Another way that the existence of the Navajo codetalkers could have leaked to the Japanese is that the June 1943 issue of _Arizona Highways_ magazine contained an article, titled "The Navajo Indian at War” by James M. Stewart that mentioned Navajo Code Talkers during World War II. Although this fact was classified, the author and editors didn’t realized that it was. It’s possible that this fact got to the Japanese somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/105 "2025-12-07T18:00:26Z")
To the original question, I can contribute one sample decoded only in 2013, and verified by the same radio message also being logged in the boat’s surviving log: > **[Berühmte Enigma-Nachricht geknackt! - datensicherheit.de](https://www.datensicherheit.de/beruehmte-enigma-nachricht-geknackt)** > > 2012 stieß mit Michael Hörenberg ein neuer Name zur Szene der Enigma-Forscher. Sein Meisterstück lieferte Hörenberg (unterstützt von seinem US-Kollegen Dan Girard) am 4. Januar 2013: Er dechiffrierte die berühmte dritte Enigma-Nachricht des... Encoded message > HCEYZTCSOPUPPZDICQRDLWXXFACTTJMBRDVCJJMMZRPYIKHZAWGLYXWTMJPQUEFSZBOTVRLALZXWVXTSLFFFAUDQFBWRRYAPSBOWJMKLDUYUPFUQDOWVHAHCDWAUARSWTKOFVOYFPUFHVZFDGGPOOVGRMBPXXZCANKMONFHXPCKHJZBUMXJWXKAUODXZUCVCXPFT Decoded message > BOOTKLARXBEIJSCHNOORBETWAZWOSIBENXNOVXSECHSNULCBMXPROVIANTBISZWONULXDEZXBENOETIGEGLMESERYNOCHVIEFKLHRXSTEHEMARQUBRUNOBRUNFZWOFUHFXLAGWWIEJKCHAEFERJXNNTWWWFUNFYEINSFUNFMBSTEIGENDYGUTESIWXDVVVJRASCH Segmented by apparent segmenting letters: > BOOT KLAR BEI SCHNOOR ETWA ZWO SIBEN NOV SECHS NUL CBM PROVIANT BIS ZWO NUL DEZ BENOETIGE GLMESER NOCH VIEF KLHR STEHE MARQU BRUNO BRUNF ZWO FUHF LAG WIE KCHAEFER NW FUNF EINS FUNF STEIGEND GUTE SI RASCH Written as normal German text > Boot klar. Bei „Schnoor“ etwa 27. Nov. 60 cbm. Proviant bis 20 Dez. Benötige Gläser, noch 4 klar. Stehe Marqu. BB 25. Lage wie „Schaefer“. NW 5, 15 mb steigend, gute Sicht. Von „Rasch“. Translated into English > Boat ready\*. At “Schnoor” circa 27 Nov 60 cubic meters. Provisions until 20 Dec. Need glasses, 4 still ready. Are ad grid reference BB 25, as is “Schaefer”. Wind NW, pressure 15 mbars [note: would mean 1015 mbars] rising, visibility good. From “Rasch”. Some takeaways: - digits are spelled out, some in nonstandard manner (SIBEN instead of SIEBEN, FUNF instead of FUENF) - u-boats are referenced by the name of their commander, rather than by their hull number - The reference to “glasses” (4 ready; need more) looks like obfuscation (code for “torpedoes”?) \*) in nautical context the German word _klar_ can mean: clear (from entanglements), ready (to use), not defective, secured, prepared, standing by for (as persons, awaiting a stated command). I have read of the Titanic having become _unklar_ with an iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/106 "2025-12-07T19:56:54Z")
What’s the procedure for the ‘segmenting letters’? I see X,J,B,X,X,X,X,X,Y, etc. With an agglutinative language like German, do you sometimes have to insert a nonsense letter to keep things clear? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/107 "2025-12-07T20:26:50Z")
Was the museum in a Burger King? I pass it regularly, but have never stopped in. Is it worth a visit? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/108 "2025-12-07T20:39:13Z")
It was at the Monument Valley Tribal Park Visitor Center. If you’re visiting the park, it’s worth a visit but it’s mostly just old photos and training manuals. I’m not sure they even had a radio set. It killed a half hour. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/109 "2025-12-07T20:50:30Z")
I want to highly recommend the podcast “en clair” to anyone interested in this subject (and other fascinating stories about forensic linguistics). There is a 3-part mini-series on the Enigma cryptoanalysis, as well as an episode on the code talkers. Both in-depth and carefully researched. The role of the Polish cipher bureau in being the first to crack Enigma and building the first bombes is an exciting story and could do with being more widely known. One important point not mentioned in this thread is that the success of the Choctaw codetalkers in WW1 led the Germans and Japanese to study Native American languages, but they found Navajo difficult to learn for various reasons. The citation for this claim is Santella, A. (2004). _Navajo Code Talkers_ (pp. 11-13). MN: Compass Point Books. So by the time of WWII, they were aware of the concept of using Native American languages as a code and Japanese linguists would likely have been able to identify the language, but not to understand it. [Season 01 | en clair](https://wp.lancs.ac.uk/enclair/seasons/season-01/) (Enigma episodes 13 to 15) [Season 02 | en clair](https://wp.lancs.ac.uk/enclair/seasons/season-02/) (Code Talkers episode 2) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/110 "2025-12-07T20:55:13Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > an agglutinative language like German German is not usually considered an agglutinative language, as you can read in [https://www.quora.com/Is-German-considered-a-true-agglutinative-language](https://www.quora.com/Is-German-considered-a-true-agglutinative-language) . ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/111 "2025-12-07T21:00:43Z")
In a synthetic-inflecting language agglutinative-like tendencies like German, do you sometimes have to insert a nonsense letter to keep things clear? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/112 "2025-12-07T21:27:43Z")
No, you don’t, what sense would a nonsense letter make? And I don’t know what the method was to insert the Xs, Js, Bs, Ys and so on if there was one at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/113 "2025-12-07T21:45:11Z")
Cases where German compounds are ambiguous are reasonably rare (_Kindergarten|leiter_ = manager of a daycare; _Kinder|gartenleiter_ = garden ladder for the use of children); in the terse prose and limited vocabulary of naval signals they would not be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/114 "2025-12-07T21:52:57Z")
English sometimes has ambiguities from breaking a compound at places other than the actual root joins, like “mans laughter” or “the penis mightier”. But those are also rare enough to be unlikely to cause confusion, especially since the context will usually make it clear. I do find it interesting, though, that “ladder” and “leader” are apparently homonyms in German. Do they come from the same root? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/115 "2025-12-07T23:30:19Z")
I like Urin Sekten (looks like urine sects, but those are primordial insects when written together and pronounced correctly) and Blumento Pferde (horses from or belonging to Blumento, or rather soil for potting plants). Those examples are so rare that the second one is completely artificial. The first one is just barely possible IRL. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/116 "2025-12-07T23:42:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … > > I do find it interesting, though, that “ladder” and “leader” are apparently homonyms in German. Do they come from the same root? They seem to have a distant common derivation from the verb for ‘to lead’, but they are easily distinguished by grammatical gender. _Bitte stellen Sie die Leiter an die Wand_ = Please lean the ladder against the wall. _Bitte stellen Sie den Leiter an die Wand_ = Please have the boss executed by firing squad. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2025, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/117 "2025-12-08T00:26:14Z")
I wish you’d taught my German classes. Your examples are much less dry than the ones in my books. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2025, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/118 "2025-12-08T00:27:52Z")
Seriously. I might have passed that German class. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2025, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/119 "2025-12-08T11:18:57Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > One important point not mentioned in this thread is that the success of the Choctaw codetalkers in WW1 led the Germans and Japanese to study Native American languages, but they found Navajo difficult to learn for various reasons. I have found a YouTube video which also discussed this, but it doesn’t have references so I’ve been trying to dig deeper. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/J6TSRMeeGO8/maxresdefault.jpg "Japanese Never Knew Navajo Code Talkers Sent Unbreakable Battle Messages") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6TSRMeeGO8) The gist is that they had figured that it was a Native American language but had not definitively decided that it was Navajo. They had reached out to Germany for help but that didn’t work. > The Imperial Navy’s fourth section assigned 30 cryptoanalysts exclusively to these transmissions. Captain Yoshiro Tanaka tried innovative approaches, musical analysis for tonal patterns, comparison to Native American recordings, consultation with scholars who studied in America. They developed special recording equipment to slow transmissions without distorting pitch. > Captain Yasuji Kawamoto was specific, “We recorded thousands of transmissions. Our best linguists studied them for three years. Nothing worked. It was a greatest cryptanalytic failure. In 1944, analysts had noted tonal patterns suggesting indigenous American languages. They requested German assistance, but wartime difficulties and German ignorance prevented breakthrough. > Captain Minoru Yamada revealed, “We knew it was Native American by late 1943, but couldn’t identify which language.” ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2025, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367/120 "2025-12-08T11:31:44Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > The role of the Polish cipher bureau in being the first to crack Enigma and building the first bombes is an exciting story and could do with being more widely known. I don’t wish to leave this without comment, because true statements like that are often taken out of context. The Enigma algorithm was never “cracked”. What the Polish, and later the Allies, did was just try every possible decoding key, until they found one that fit. The Poles realized that German practice reduced the complexity by an order of magnitude, optimized the practice further by recognizing the limitations of the coding system, and built a manual / mechanical system to try more valid keys faster. The Allied code-breaking effort was a massive technological achievement, to handle the exponentially larger number of keys that needed to be tried in the more secure versions used by the Germans, but it wasn’t just that: they didn’t just copy the Polish idea and stop there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-german-codes-broken-by-the-enigma-machine-coherent-german/1025367.md?page=7)