# Were the Jews a Fighting People? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248 "2008-02-12T04:11:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/21 "2008-02-12T17:31:24Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] [Two-Gun Cohen,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Cohen_(adventurer)) Sun Yat-Sen’s bodyguard, comes to mind … ) [/QUOTE] Damn! What a movie that’d make! Somebody call Spielberg! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/22 "2008-02-12T17:58:15Z")
True dat. I’d never heard of the guy - what a story! ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/23 "2008-02-12T18:04:24Z")
[QUOTE=Jragon] to the Jews walking armed out of Egypt and pillaging a town on the way out after being freed (not to metnion I’ve seen it argued they weren’t slaves but rather hired mercenaries). [/QUOTE] I haven’t heard this argument before, but it seems interesting. Do you have a cite that explains this argument? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/24 "2008-02-12T18:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Damn! What a movie that’d make! Somebody call Spielberg! [/QUOTE] But who’d play him? Now that Roy Scheider’s gone, Hollywood needs a new tough Jewish guy. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/25 "2008-02-12T19:55:33Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] But who’d play him? Now that Roy Scheider’s gone, Hollywood needs a new tough Jewish guy. [/QUOTE] Will Smith? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/26 "2008-02-12T21:42:24Z")
The ancient jews were definitely a fighting people, and the modern jews are definitely a fighting people but from about 135 AD to 1948, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/27 "2008-02-14T02:21:38Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] But who’d play him? Now that Roy Scheider’s gone, Hollywood needs a new tough Jewish guy. [/QUOTE] Roy Scheider was not Jewish. According to [Wikipedia,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Scheider) he’s of Irish Catholic and Protestant German background. As for Jewish tough guys of Hollywood, there are lots of them. James Caan is the classic example. There’s also Ron Perlman, of course, and Jeff Goldblum. Liev Schreiber, who has played a lot of badasses, is Jewish, as is James Franco. And more recently, Ben Foster (who has made a niche playing murderous psychopaths in _Alpha Dog_ and _3:10 to Yuma._ ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/28 "2008-02-14T03:14:00Z")
Not Jewish? Well pierce my ears and call me drafty - ignorance fought. Wikipedia has a [list of Jewish actors](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_actors_and_actresses), in chronological order. I can’t help noticing that the farther the list gets from the age of pogroms and tenements, the fewer among the listed are recognizable as tough guys. My personal choice for toughest is Edward G. Robinson. Jeff Chandler is also a favorite (but is there any corrobration to Ester Williams’ claim that he was a transvestite?) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/29 "2008-02-14T03:35:21Z")
Of course, [Bugsy Siegel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugsy_Siegel) was known to get in a scrap or two. > [@slithy trove](#): > > Wikipedia has a list of Jewish actors, in chronological order. I can’t help noticing that the farther the list gets from the age of pogroms and tenements, the fewer among the listed are recognizable as tough guys. My personal choice for toughest is Edward G. Robinson. James Caan would kick your ass for saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/30 "2008-02-14T04:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] I haven’t heard this argument before, but it seems interesting. Do you have a cite that explains this argument? [/QUOTE] I can’t find a paper, I’ve seen it in Bible Battles on the History channel (which is why I’ve said I’ve seen it argued, rather than argue it myself because I’m basing it on a single thing I’ve seen rather than a multitude of papers). The general gist of it was that the Israelites were out in the field and outskirts to protect Egypt, the pharoah got antsy after seeing them fight (or something) and decided they were a threat, so while their contract (or what amounted to it) was active, moved them into the town and didn’t let them see action. And generally quelled (not opressed) them. This was backed up by the fact that they were allowed to walk out armed (not a typical thing to let SLAVES do), they managed to successfully pillage a town on the way out (which the story is rather explicit about). And the fact that the pillars of cloud and flame (or whatever) are depicted as signaling techniques documented in Egyptian writings as they escaped, possibly showing how the light of the fire could also have had a dual purpose of blinding the trailing Egyptian forces for a battle. Then further documented Moses’ keen knowledge of the surrounding area and how to string the Egyptians to the Red Sea and escape them showing a much more vast tactical knowlege than he should have Pharoah’s favourite or not. Whether anyone agrees with it or not, it’s at least an interesting watch. > [@summary](#): > > In one of the most hostile lands on the planet, an ancient people called the Israelites forged an army and carved out an empire. Their ancient military exploits are described in one of history’s most famous religious texts; the old testament of the Bible. But by reading between the religious lines, ancient military historians unlock the soldier’s secrets of the bible by examining the weapons, the strategies; and the commanders, some of whom are unlikely warriors, like Abraham, Moses, and Deborah. Bible Battles is a two hour hi-definition special that explores the biblical world from a military perspective from the time of Abraham, approximately 1500 BC, until David’s ascension to the throne, around 1000 BC. Using graphic battle re-creations choreographed by a Hollywood sword master, Bible Battles brings to life some of the most famous stories of the Bible, like the Exodus, the battle of Jericho, and David’s fight against Goliath; as well as more obscure stories like Abraham’s surprise nighttime raid against the Chaldeans, Gideon’s battle against the Midianites, and Jonathan’s daring attack against a Philistine outpost. Blood often flows more freely than holy water in the days of the Old Testament, and the military secrets of the Bible have yet to be revealed; until now. [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0446935/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0446935/) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/31 "2008-02-14T15:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] …As for Jewish tough guys of Hollywood, there are lots of them. James Caan is the classic example. There’s also Ron Perlman, of course, and Jeff Goldblum… [/QUOTE] Jeff Goldblum, a tough guy? Uh… no. :dubious: But Issur Danielovitch (Kirk Douglas), William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, back in the day? Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/32 "2008-02-14T15:39:14Z")
I disagree. Goldblum might play a lot of scientists and nerdy types, but his tall stature, powerful build, deep voice and great screen presence all add up to a guy who, if maybe not “badass,” is at least pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/33 "2008-02-14T15:40:26Z")
Also, how could I have forgotten Harvey Keitel? He’s right up there with Caan, I think. ---
**Author:** ![HM8404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@HM8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HM8404)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/34 "2008-03-26T13:47:10Z")
Heard of Barney Ross? 3 time boxing World Champion, then after he retired joined the Marine Corps during World War 2. Served on Guadalcanal, earned the Silver Star. He weighed 140 lbs and carried a 230 lbs guy to safety. Killed approximetly 20 enemies. Went home and fought a bad drug problem he developed while recovering for war wounds. As an older man volunteered to fight for the creation of the State of Israel. Sounds like a figher to me. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/35 "2008-03-26T16:09:11Z")
Can a zombie be Jewish? Anyway, yeah I’ve heard of Barney Ross. He was part of the first generation of Jews that started fighting and continued up until the present with the Israeli military. After World War II the Jews became a little more militant about preserving their lives. Yes, the Jews in Israel are badasses who make badass weapons and fly badass planes and everything. I know. That’s still a really really small part of their history, and who knows how much longer it will last anyway? My prediction is that Israel will either be destroyed by Iran, or simply have a population shift leading to an Arab majority, within the next 100 years, and cease to exist as it is now known. The Jews in the rest of the world will probably slowly disappear through intermarriage and assimilation. (I’m not all that optimistic, I know.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/36 "2008-03-26T16:16:00Z")
And, for the record, there were a few Jewish cowboys, ladies and gentlemen. Big guys who were great shots and spent money freely. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/37 "2008-03-26T16:16:45Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Will Smith? [/QUOTE] The only Jew Will Smith could play is Sammy Davis, Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/38 "2008-03-26T16:21:08Z")
[QUOTE=Simplicio] Has there ever been a non-fighting people? Pretty much any ethnic group I can think of have had some sort of history of warfare and/or cultural myths and traditions that glorify violence. [/QUOTE] The Moriori come to mind; they were intensely pacifist, which led to their [virtual extermination](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori#European_contact_and_invasion_by_Taranaki_M.C4.81ori) when their isolation ended and the Maori invaded. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/39 "2008-03-26T16:40:48Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] The Jews in the rest of the world will probably slowly disappear through intermarriage and assimilation. (I’m not all that optimistic, I know.) [/QUOTE] Why would you believe that after 4000 years of not disappearing through assimilation and intermarriage that it would happen now? 😕 And I don’t share you thoughts WRT Israel either, but that’s another subject. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248/40 "2008-03-26T16:58:16Z")
There were Jewish people who fought side by side with Mohammad in defense of Medina. Marc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-jews-a-fighting-people/437248.md?page=3)