Were the rebels "all that" in the Star Wars movies?

Cafe Society
41

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
One of the things we run into here is that often, the source material flatly contradicts itself. The movies (prequel or no) contradict many novels; novels contradict other novels. Heck, some novels contradict themselves.

In some of the more recent ones, Jedi characters have even taken to flinging around force lightning (a la the Emperor or Count Dooku), which is a major no-no (and in fact, impossible) for a light-sider in other material. Too much material nowadays. Don’t even get me started on the 5 & 1/2 origin stories for Boba Fett.
[/QUOTE]
That isn’t really the best example, since Jedi using force lightning is justified by the writers. It’s not like they suddenly start using it for no reason, ignoring other books.

In general, though, you do have a good point. A lot of it contradicts other stuff.

42

[QUOTE=RickJay]
If there had been an additional scene at the end of the film showing Butch and Sundance dancing and celebrating many hours after the preceding scene, then no, they would not have died.

It’s not like this is something the movie left to your imaginination. The moon was perfectly habitable after the Death Star blew up. It was quite a few hours later when we see the surface of the moon, and its inhabitants, in perfectly good health.
[/quote]

As has been pointed out, the destruction of Endor would not have been instantaneous. It probably would have taken about a year or so for the climate change to really kick in and start decimating the eco-system. The big party on Endor doesn’t really prove anything.

The way I approach sci-fi movies is, I assume all the laws of our universe apply unless explicitly told different. The movie shows us fighters zipping around like they’re in an atmosphere, so that’s how that works in that universe. The movie does not show us a planet surviving the long term effects of a moon-sized battle station exploding in orbit, so until they explicitly say otherwise, Endor’s a done deal.

Incidentally, some more EU evidence that Endor is fucked. In the Zahn novels, there’s a race that works as Vader’s private assassins called the Noghri. The Noghri’s homeworld was poisoned when a dreadnought during the Clone Wars was destroyed in orbit, spraying deadly chemicals into the planet’s atmosphere, killing off most of the world’s vegetation. And that’s just from something about the size of a Star Destroyer. Something the size of the Death Star? There’s no way Endor is surviving without a major intercession from the Alliance.

Although come to think of it, in the same series, they do go back to Endor, but I don’t think they land on it. No mention of the state of the moon itself is made, IIRC.

43

[QUOTE=Terminus Est]
Further, there’s no canonical evidence that Endor was destroyed.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree. It is an inevitable consequence of the events explicitly depicted in the movie. The movie doesn’t show this, true–it ends with a saccharine and morally unsatisfying ending–but we observe only a very tiny portion of the moon’s surface which is unharmed. Perhaps this area was momentarily protected by a portable force field while the rebels attempted a partical evacuation of the ewoks. Not that incredibly massive debris flying at high velocity toward the moon is shown in the movie. The consquences are clear.

That moon’s ecosystem and everything that lived within it were toast.

44

[QUOTE=Knorf]
Not that incredibly massive debris flying at high velocity…
[/QUOTE]

Um, this should read, “Note that…”

45

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
One of the things we run into here is that often, the source material flatly contradicts itself. The movies (prequel or no) contradict many novels; novels contradict other novels. Heck, some novels contradict themselves.
[/QUOTE]

That’s it - I’m sticking to what I saw on the screen.

And what I saw on the screen sez that Princess Leia can’t sing, and Chewie’s dad watches Wookie porn while Chewie’s mom makes dinner. :smiley:

46

It’s been a very long time since I read any Star Wars books, but I remember someone going back to the place on Endor where Darth Vader got cremated.

I think it was either Luke or Kyp Durron.

47

Even if Endor were destroyed, I refuse to entertain the notion that killing inferior Muppets is some sort of war crime. As far as destroying the Death Star goes, I think Chronos covered it. It’s an enemy craft, akin to an aircraft carrier; thus it is a legitimate target in war and it’s totally justifiable as self-defense.

48

[QUOTE=Knorf]
I disagree. It is an inevitable consequence of the events explicitly depicted in the movie. The movie doesn’t show this, true–it ends with a saccharine and morally unsatisfying ending–but we observe only a very tiny portion of the moon’s surface which is unharmed. Perhaps this area was momentarily protected by a portable force field while the rebels attempted a partical evacuation of the ewoks. Not that incredibly massive debris flying at high velocity toward the moon is shown in the movie. The consquences are clear.

That moon’s ecosystem and everything that lived within it were toast.
[/QUOTE]

You’re forgetting another counter-example - Yavin. The first Death Star went boom realtively close to Yavin - it was orbiting the big planet Yavin was orbiting also, it had line of sight, and it was close enough to use the weapon. However we see the ceremony at the end of ANH, which had to take place long enough after the battle for R2 to get repaired and Han to shave, and no one was looking nervous. There were no natives to evacuate, so there was no reason to stick around if they were at any risk.

I’d guess that the power plant going made tiny pieces of the DS, and they burned up in the atmosphere with no ill effects. (Or minor ones.) Also, there was less to DS 2, unfinished, than DS 1.

Sorry, the Ewoks survived.

I’m shocked that it took so long for the Clerks bit to get mentioned!

49

[QUOTE=Voyager]
You’re forgetting another counter-example - Yavin. The first Death Star went boom realtively close to Yavin - it was orbiting the big planet Yavin was orbiting also, it had line of sight, and it was close enough to use the weapon. However we see the ceremony at the end of ANH, which had to take place long enough after the battle for R2 to get repaired and Han to shave, and no one was looking nervous. There were no natives to evacuate, so there was no reason to stick around if they were at any risk.

I’d guess that the power plant going made tiny pieces of the DS, and they burned up in the atmosphere with no ill effects. (Or minor ones.) Also, there was less to DS 2, unfinished, than DS 1.
[/QUOTE]

I thought about this one, and there are some critical differences.

The Death Star 2 was in low orbit over the Endor moon (so low that I would imagine some anti-grav thingy was keeping it from crashing.) Remember, it was plainly visible in the day sky, and it seemed to have a larger aspect than our own moon. If it was the size of a “small moon”, and appeared larger than the moon does in our own sky, then one may assume that its orbital radius was much smaller than that of the Earth-Moon system. When the DS2 blew, it really had no place to go but straight down into the Ewok’s homeworld.

The first Death Star, on the other hand, was not anywhere near the Yavin moon that the rebels were hiding on. Yavin was a huge Jupiter-sized gas giant, the rebels were on its moon, and the Death Star was steering around Yavin in order to get the moon in line-of-sight.

Some conclusions:

First, the Death Star was at least as far away from the moon as the moon was from Yavin, and probably a lot farther. I’ve seen the handle “Yavin IV” tossed around, suggesting it’s the 4th moon out. For comparison, Calliosto is Jupiter’s 4th moon, and has an orbital radius which is nearly 5 times that of the Earth-Moon system.

Secondly, it suggests an orbit which, if unassisted, would slingshot the DS past Yavin and make it miss the rebels’ moon, at least on the first pass.

Thirdly, the rebels were celebrating inside that huge stone temple. If there’s a threat of flaming chunks of radioactive metal falling from the sky, then I too would want a million tons of stone above my head.

Fourth, and this is perhaps the most important point, the Yavin moon had no annoying sentient teddy bears. I have invested no emotional interest in believing that the Yavin moon was destroyed. :wink:

50

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]

Back to your question, there are some cases of humans being (at least) reduced to slums and begging, if the government or a majority of a planet displeased the Emperor in some way. I can’t recall any cases of humans being used as slaves in name, though.

That’s not to say slave labour was totally gone. Unlike the Old Republic, the Empire was perfectly willing to work with the Hutts and some less powerful criminal organisations, which did use humans (and anyone else) as slave labour.
[/QUOTE]

Well, we don’t know the Old Republic wasn’t willing to work with the Hutts, either. In fact, in the prequel movies, we see first of all that the Jedi are wholly unconcerned about slavery on Tatooine, and secondly, that the Republic is willing to have an entire army of clone soldiers who are, effectively, slaves.

51

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
I thought about this one, and there are some critical differences.

The Death Star 2 was in low orbit over the Endor moon (so low that I would imagine some anti-grav thingy was keeping it from crashing.) Remember, it was plainly visible in the day sky, and it seemed to have a larger aspect than our own moon. If it was the size of a “small moon”, and appeared larger than the moon does in our own sky, then one may assume that its orbital radius was much smaller than that of the Earth-Moon system. When the DS2 blew, it really had no place to go but straight down into the Ewok’s homeworld.
[/QUOTE]

This assumes, first off, that Earth is a valid basis from which to make comparisons in the Star Wars universe. How do we know that our own moon is considered a “Regular Sized Moon”? For all we know, the Death Star is the size of “A Small Moon” and our own moon is the size of a “Cute wittle moonie woonie”. :wink:

52

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Well, we don’t know the Old Republic wasn’t willing to work with the Hutts, either. In fact, in the prequel movies, we see first of all that the Jedi are wholly unconcerned about slavery on Tatooine, and secondly, that the Republic is willing to have an entire army of clone soldiers who are, effectively, slaves.
[/QUOTE]

We know that the Republic’s civil rights standards were different from ours. In Episode 2, we are told that the viceroy of the Trade Federation was put on trial three times. Apparently, they had no concept akin to double jeopardy.

53

But the second Death Staar couldn’t have been in a low orbit around the forest moon of Endor, because it was always orbiting above the shield generator, so it would have to have been in a geosynchronous (lunasynchronous? Endorsynchronous?) orbit, which should have put it at a safe distance, debris-wise.

54

The second Death Star was considerably different to the first; the most obvious difference being that the Imps had actual operative experience from the first one, and could fix any problems in the design of the second. Technologyicla advances were also incorporated. It was bigger, more heavily armed, and didn’t have any exhaust ports large enough for a torpedo to be fired down straight into the core. It also had a lot more anti-starfighter weaponry, and the main weapon was much more efficient, allowing them to fire it more frequently, which we see in the use of it in RotJ.

Note also that it’s not just the Death Star destroyed at Endor’s moon, but also Darth Vader’s flagship (The Executor, the friggin’ huge ship we see crashing into the Death Star) and a good amount of both the Imperial and Rebel fleets.

Take that, and add in the comparative distance from the respective planet/moon, and it’s perfectly feasible that Yavin is spared destruction (and in the EU, unlike Endor, it is mentioned a lot and certainly doesn’t seem devestated).

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Well, we don’t know the Old Republic wasn’t willing to work with the Hutts, either. In fact, in the prequel movies, we see first of all that the Jedi are wholly unconcerned about slavery on Tatooine, and secondly, that the Republic is willing to have an entire army of clone soldiers who are, effectively, slaves.
[/QUOTE]
It’s less that the Jedi are wholly unconcerned, and more that the Hutts are a powerful enemy. Going directly against them (and their supporter and backers) would be extremely costly to the Jedi, and so would rob them of their ability to help people in general. Cost effective analysis on their part.

As to the clones; bear in mind that they’ve been conditioned to follow orders. They’re free to leave any time they want - they just don’t want to. Also count in that there already was a vast robotic army serving the enemy, which likely was a powerful motivator to condone the use of the clones. And lastly, it’s Palpatine that brought in the clones; much of the second film is about getting him the power to create/use such an army; even as the leader of the Senate, he’s unable to get what he wants until he gets his emergency powers. It’s not as though the Senate was in agreement.

55

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]

It’s less that the Jedi are wholly unconcerned, and more that the Hutts are a powerful enemy. Going directly against them (and their supporter and backers) would be extremely costly to the Jedi, and so would rob them of their ability to help people in general. Cost effective analysis on their part.
[/quote]

Maybe, but we don’t know that they are concerned, either. You’d think that if the Republic was so concerned about Hutt slavery, they would have done something about it. But all we know is that they didn’t.

Well, again, we don’t know that they’re free to leave any time they want, but even if they are, engineering slaves so that they won’t rebel doesn’t make them any less slaves. As to your other points, the Senate granted Palpatine emergency powers, so if anything, that’s a failure of the Republic. And we see that the Republic wasn’t working effectively at the beginning of the first prequel episode.

56

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Maybe, but we don’t know that they are concerned, either. You’d think that if the Republic was so concerned about Hutt slavery, they would have done something about it. But all we know is that they didn’t.
[/quote]
That’s true. One explanation may be that they just don’t care. But that doesn’t really seem in character, does it?

Due to the machinations of Palpatine. You can’t assume the Republic wasn’t working well even before he came along since we don’t see that either. All we know is that it hadn’t failed for 4000 years prior to Palpatine’s arrival.

57

[QUOTE=Diceman]
We know that the Republic’s civil rights standards were different from ours. In Episode 2, we are told that the viceroy of the Trade Federation was put on trial three times. Apparently, they had no concept akin to double jeopardy.
[/QUOTE]

They could have ended in in mistrials or he might have been put on trial for three different charges.

Marc

58

I have to do some research regarding the eventual fate of Endor, but for those wondering about the effect of Death Star Prime’s destruction in the Yavin system, it should be noted that Yavin IV (which is, indeed, the fourth moon of the gas giant) is the eventual site of the new Jedi Academy and suffers no ill effects.

I could swear I remember reading a short scene in one of the later novels that took place on Endor, but I can’t recall it at the moment. There’s definitely a scene in Zahn’s Heir to the Empire trilogy where Leia meets the Noghri Khabarakh in orbit around Endor. Mention is made of debris and of Leia having an episode when the Falcon passes through the spot in space where the Death Star II exploded, but there is no mention of anything being amiss on Endor. Which is kind of a negative affirmation in itself–that scene was from Leia’s point of view, and if anybody was going to think “What a shame we destroyed a planet just to win against the Empire,” it’d be Leia.

59

I remember in one book a scene that takes place in the Imperial Remnant (the corner of the galaxy that the rebel pushed the empire into and then made peace with) museum that has stuffed ewoks and has a placard that says something like “Native Species wiped out by the Rebellion”. Its kind of played as a joke. I think there’s a comment about it being propaganda.

60

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
I thought about this one, and there are some critical differences.

The Death Star 2 was in low orbit over the Endor moon (so low that I would imagine some anti-grav thingy was keeping it from crashing.) Remember, it was plainly visible in the day sky, and it seemed to have a larger aspect than our own moon. If it was the size of a “small moon”, and appeared larger than the moon does in our own sky, then one may assume that its orbital radius was much smaller than that of the Earth-Moon system. When the DS2 blew, it really had no place to go but straight down into the Ewok’s homeworld.

[/quote]

However, it was far enough away from Endor for the Imperial Fleet to maneuver without encountering atmospheric resistance. In fact, we can calculate exactly the orbit - to be protected by the shield generator, it must be in synchronous orbit. We don’t know how big Endor is, but it appears to have about earth gravity, so the Death Star would be about 23,000 miles out. So, further then the moon, but not a low orbit by any means.

I’d assume that Yavin was directly between the Death Star’s position near Alderan and the moon, which was why it came out of hyperspace where it did. Imperial navigators, though, don’t seem very clever about coming out of hyperspace where they should during attacks. We don’t see the moon and the Death Star in the same shot, but that might be attributable to special effects constraints. The rebel fighters don’t seem to take very long to get to the Death Star though, nor take very long in returning.

Now below you imply that the DS is in orbit. I don’t see why they’d spend the delta V to put it in orbit. How about a non-circular orbit? No, since it would make sense to have the DS on a course straight for the moon, to allow for a second shot if needed. So, debris would have momentum that would head it straight for the moon. This is probably more dangerous than DS 2, since some of its debris would stay in orbit, some would assume higher orbits, and that which gets slowed enough to enter the atmosphere would have plenty of time to burn up. Debris heading straight for a planet, like an asteroid, is a lot more dangerous.

Immaterial, since the DS would at a similar distance from Yavin.

Covered above.

I always thought they were in a courtyard of the temple - on the grounds, but outside. No matter - the ancients would have had to build real well to protect the rebels from a ton of metal impacting anywhere close at escape velocity or higher. Anyhow, as we know from Armageddon, pieces of space debris always hit landmarks. :slight_smile:

Well, that one I’ll give to you. And I feel so delightfully geeky. :smiley: