# Were the romans more patriotic than americans today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 11, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580 "2015-01-11T23:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/1 "2015-01-11T23:58:56Z")
From what I’ve learned, romans were very patriotic people. (not sure if I should have posted this in great debates, will let mods decide) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/2 "2015-01-12T00:46:08Z")
How would one know? Did some of them drive through Rome with the Roman flag flying in the rear of their chariots? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/3 "2015-01-12T00:48:16Z")
This is impossible to answer without specifying a more specific time period. The “Romans” can mean from the start of the Roman Republic (509 BC) to the fall of the Eastern Empire in 1453. Patriotism went in and out of favour many many times depending on the politics of the day. Patriotism would have been much higher during the long reigns of Augustus and Tiberius than during the Year of Five Emperors. Augustus also introduced the deification of emperors as gods and started the Imperial Cult which built temples to the power of the Roman State throughout the empire: > **[Roman imperial cult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome))** > > Deified leaders: > The Roman imperial cult identified emperors and some members of their families with the divinely sanctioned authority (auctoritas) of the Roman State. Its framework was based on Roman and Greek precedents, and was formulated during the early Principate of Augustus. It was rapidly established throughout the Empire and its provinces, with marked local variations in its reception and expression. > Augustus's reforms transformed Rome's Republican system of government to a de facto ... It would also vary depending on if you were a Roman citizen or not. The vast majority of people living within the boundaries of the empire were not Roman citizens. Citizenship was highly valuable and conferred tax exemptions and a certain level of immunity when travelling. So to answer your question I think that Roman citizens during the early Roman Empire during the reigns of good emperors would have been more patriotic than Americans yes. They literally worshipped their emperors as gods. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/4 "2015-01-12T17:21:02Z")
I think you also have to have some sort of definition of _patriotism_. Here, for instance, many children daily pledge allegiance to the flag and the country (as noted in other threads), many people swear they love their country (see Fox News, people running for office, bumper stickers, etc. ) and so on. Is that patriotism? What about legislation that makes poverty and unemployment unlikely and makes education and health care free to all? Legislation that required public service of all high school graduates? Would that indicate a love for country? We don’t have those things. Other countries do. Is patriotism words or actions? You need to define this term. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/5 "2015-01-12T18:11:01Z")
It was a Big Deal being a Roman citizen for quite a while. You had quite a bit of protection. In the foreign areas, roman politicos had so much power than one just walked between two armies lined up for battle in Africa and forbid it- _and they stopped._ Cant remember his name, but he had balls the size of melons. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/6 "2015-01-12T18:26:59Z")
Difficult to quantify “patriotic” for use in GQ. Having traveled to a few foreign counties, I would say that America is the least patriotic. Given that, Romans were probably more patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/7 "2015-01-12T19:41:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It was a Big Deal being a Roman citizen for quite a while. > > You had quite a bit of protection. > > In the foreign areas, roman politicos had so much power than one just walked between two armies lined up for battle in Africa and forbid it- _and they stopped._ Cant remember his name, but he had balls the size of melons. Ah, found him. Gaius Popillius Laenas. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/8 "2015-01-12T22:24:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ah, found him. Gaius Popillius Laenas. Yup. The rhetorical “line in the sand” comes from that story, as far I know. “Antiochus Epiphanes, I speak for Rome. You will not step out of the circle I have drawn around you until you have answered the Senate: Will you invade our ally Egypt, or will you withdraw?” What a dude. He probably need a galley of his own for his huge brass ones. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/9 "2015-01-13T07:42:55Z")
[Hail Caesar and everything, sir!](http://www.epicure.me.uk/latinlesson.html) someone had to ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/10 "2015-01-14T04:09:18Z")
Giving the huge differences between the era of Empires and that of the modern nation-state I find the question itself inherently unanswerable. > [@Coriolanus](#): > > [Hail Caesar and everything, sir!](http://www.epicure.me.uk/latinlesson.html) > > someone had to Having seen the movie so many times just reading this is hilarious! [(but just in case…)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/11 "2015-01-14T15:16:23Z")
What’ve the Romans ever done for us, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/12 "2015-01-14T15:20:14Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Difficult to quantify “patriotic” for use in GQ. > > Having traveled to a few foreign counties, I would say that America is the least patriotic. Emphasis added. Wow, you really get around your own state a lot, don’t you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/13 "2015-01-14T15:48:11Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > This is impossible to answer without specifying a more specific time period. The “Romans” can mean from the start of the Roman Republic (509 BC) to the fall of the Eastern Empire in 1453. > > Patriotism went in and out of favour many many times depending on the politics of the day. Patriotism would have been much higher during the long reigns of Augustus and Tiberius than during the Year of Five Emperors. Augustus also introduced the deification of emperors as gods and started the Imperial Cult which built temples to the power of the Roman State throughout the empire: It’s the same for this and probably any other country. During the brief time the US was engaged in WWI, patriotic fervor was extreme. So extreme, in fact, that the [Sedition Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918) made it a crime to criticize the President, the military, or anything to do with the war effort. The language of the Act even prohibited criticizing military _uniforms_. People reported each other and there was even a youth patriot group that was encouraged to report on their parents. People were arrested and imprisoned for what today would pass for normal conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/14 "2015-01-14T16:19:21Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s the same for this and probably any other country. During the brief time the US was engaged in WWI, patriotic fervor was extreme. So extreme, in fact, that the [Sedition Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918) made it a crime to criticize the President, the military, or anything to do with the war effort. The language of the Act even prohibited criticizing military _uniforms_. People reported each other and there was even a youth patriot group that was encouraged to report on their parents. People were arrested and imprisoned for what today would pass for normal conversation. Wow! I’d heard of this, but perhaps got it confused with the subversion of the Constitution (with the same name) John Adams put forth in 1798. “Funny” that they were both repealed/expired, but the 1920 one was upheld by what was mostly a corrupt Supreme Court. To their credit, Oliver Wendell Homes and Theodore Roosevelt (among many others) dis-approved of this “law”. [QUOTE=the 65th United States Congress] Whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States, or to promote the success of its enemies, or shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements, or say or do anything except by way of bona fide and not disloyal advice to an investor or investors, with intent to obstruct the sale by the United States of bonds or other securities of the United States or the making of loans by or to the United States, and whoever when the United States is at war, shall willfully cause or attempt to cause, or incite or attempt to incite, insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or shall willfully obstruct or attempt to obstruct the recruiting or enlistment services of the United States, and whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States, or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy of the United States into contempt, scorn, contumely, or disrepute, or shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any language intended to incite, provoke, or encourage resistance to the United States, or to promote the cause of its enemies, or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully by utterance, writing, printing, publication, or language spoken, urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production in this country of any thing or things, product or products, necessary or essential to the prosecution of the war in which the United States may be engaged, with intent by such curtailment to cripple or hinder the United States in the prosecution of war, and whoever shall willfully advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated, and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or the imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both…" [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/15 "2015-01-14T16:30:29Z")
Oliver Wendell Ho **l** mes. A great American Jurist. Not quite as great a male stripper as the late Earl Warren. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/16 "2015-01-14T18:17:49Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Wow! I’d heard of this, but perhaps got it confused with the subversion of the Constitution (with the same name) John Adams put forth in 1798. “Funny” that they were both repealed/expired, but the 1920 one was upheld by what was mostly a corrupt Supreme Court. > > To their credit, Oliver Wendell Homes and Theodore Roosevelt (among many others) dis-approved of this “law”. It extended to books and music of the time, as well. There was one record that came out of Tin Pan Alley that had a title something like “If you don’t like our President Wilson, You’re Stabbing America In The Back”. [Oh, here it is](http://oldpoliticals.com/ItemImages/000012/13132_lg.jpeg). Those sorts of records were the norm during that period. People were reported for not singing the anthem loudly enough. The typical prison sentence was 5-20 years (!) and up to $10,000 in fines for such “sedition”. Interesting how America went from “we don’t give a shit about the war in Europe” to rabid patriotism nearly overnight. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/17 "2015-01-14T18:29:14Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It extended to books and music of the time, as well. There was one record that came out of Tin Pan Alley that had a title something like “If you don’t like our President Wilson, You’re Stabbing America In The Back”. [Oh, here it is](http://oldpoliticals.com/ItemImages/000012/13132_lg.jpeg). Those sorts of records were the norm during that period. People were reported for not singing the anthem loudly enough. The typical prison sentence was 5-20 years (!) and up to $10,000 in fines for such “sedition”. Interesting how America went from “we don’t give a shit about the war in Europe” to rabid patriotism nearly overnight. And then back again. Once the USA found out we were conned into joining WWI, the reaction was so strong it founded a powerful Isolationist movement. > **[Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/american-isolationism)** > > history.state.gov 3.0 shell ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/18 "2015-01-14T19:15:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And then back again. Once the USA found out we were conned into joining WWI, the reaction was so strong it founded a powerful Isolationist movement. > [Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/american-isolationism) Interesting analysis. The Japanese incursion into Manchuria in 1931 was presaged by their sudden interest in the [AEFS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Expeditionary_Force_Siberia) (American Expeditionary Force, Siberia) and AEFNR (Northern Russia) effort by the US between 1918-1920 (a very little-known part of WWI). Japan sent some 10,000-20,000 troops to Siberia in a blatant attempt at a land grab. Part of the reason for US presence was to prevent that from happening. Sorry for the derailing of the thread, but it’s an interesting period in history. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-romans-more-patriotic-than-americans-today/709580/19 "2015-01-15T19:57:21Z")
The concept of a nation state does not exist in Roman times, whatever bound Romans to the Roman state, it was not patriotism in the modern sense. That said I would say Roman religion was bound to the state and their citizen’s relationship to it incredibly closely, even compared the craziest “god and guns” American fanatic nowadays. In the republican era, the system that protected the republican government institutions from overthrow were as much religious as constitutional. If you usurped the republican system you were going against the will of the Gods.