# Were The Slaves "Lucky"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818 "2009-10-23T02:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/81 "2009-10-31T02:27:43Z")
Sure, but if you’re going to refer to statistics, include them. “Statistics show…” almost invariably precedes a statement that has no basis in fact. That’s why politicians say it so often. Anyway, the UK has a longer life expectancy than we do, but you won’t find many people who say its denizens are better off than Americans\*. Moreover, the current level of ownership of consumer durables in the US is in part due to the Wal\*Marting of the nation, and probably isn’t a good thing, in the long run. \*Having spent about half my life in one and about half in the other, I feel uniquely qualified to comment on this. ETA: I should also point out that African life expectancy figures are mightily skewed by a few countries such as Sierra Leone, where thanks to civil war the current life expectancy is about 24. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/82 "2009-10-31T02:38:32Z")
Curtis, what do you think is the ultimate reason for the disparity in lifespan and wealth in parts of Africa when compared to western nations? Calling black slaves lucky is like telling somebody “Sure, we kidnapped you and beat you and forced you into a life of servitude. Sure, we murdered your brothers and sisters along the way. But aren’t you lucky you weren’t in your parents house when we burnt it down?” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/83 "2009-10-31T03:00:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure, but if you’re going to refer to statistics, include them. “Statistics show…” almost invariably precedes a statement that has no basis in fact. > > That’s why politicians say it so often. > > Anyway, the UK has a longer life expectancy than we do, but you won’t find many people who say its denizens are better off than Americans\*. > > Moreover, the current level of ownership of consumer durables in the US is in part due to the Wal\*Marting of the nation, and probably isn’t a good thing, in the long run. > > \*Having spent about half my life in one and about half in the other, I feel uniquely qualified to comment on this. > > ETA: I should also point out that African life expectancy figures are mightily skewed by a few countries such as Sierra Leone, where thanks to civil war the current life expectancy is about 24. Between the UK and the USA it’s only a few years difference, but American and African life spans are different by some twenty years. Also Sierra Leonie’s lifespan isn’t 24. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/84 "2009-10-31T03:04:54Z")
You’re quite right. That was in [2000](http://www.africaaction.org/docs00/life0006.htm), and it was 25.9. It’s now 34. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/85 "2009-10-31T03:52:24Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > First off, we did not _kidnap_ africans and stuff them into boats, we actually _bought_ them in slavers auctions and stuffed them into boats. The africans did it to their own. There already _was_ a slave economy there, we just bought slaves to bring over. > > To be honest, I am sick to death of slavery this and slavery that … get off it. You are descended from a slave who would have been a slave no matter where they lived. At least in the US your lineage eventually got freed, in Africa they still have slavery [though it is rarely discussed, it still happens. Read some of the human rights violation websites sometime.] _I_ didnt drag your ancestors ass off a slave block and stuff them into a ship, go to school, get an education and get your ass a job. If you are over 18 you are franchised, get your ass out and VOTE. Participate in the modern world and ignore the past. Women didnt have to be slaves to be forced into marriage, have no legal standings other than as chattel, and be abused, all women were born into chattel slavery. Actually, in traditional African slavery, if you managed to be freed (by your owner’s generosity, by saving up and buying yourself, etc.) you would return to being a normal member of society. In traditional _American_ slavery, if you managed to be freed you would still be a second-class citizen subject to considerable legal regulation, as well as illegal but culturally tolerated harassment and abuse by whites. In fact, after the importation of new slaves stopped, it became less and less possible for a slave to become free without running away to the North (and you might be extradited back to the South anyway). Also, African slavery wasn’t a function of ethnicity, and wasn’t necessarily hereditary. Much of later American slavery was run as a stockbreeding occupation; at the time of the Civil War the Old South slave plantations derived much of their income from selling slaves to the western states. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/86 "2009-10-31T04:28:48Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well my statistic has basis in fact. For instance in the _World Almanac Book and Book of Facts 2006_ TV ownership rates in the USA is 844 per 1,000 people. Compared to Botswana a compratively wealthy African country which has 21 TV sets per thousand people. The black lifespan in America is 72. 3 years while the African lifespan in 50.5 years! So… you’re saying were the slaves lucky because thanks to them, all americans of all races and creeds can now have 844 tvs per 1000 people? Your stats kinda mean nothing. The ability for all people in 2006 in the United states to own a TV vs. the rates in Africa have slim to none to do with owning a TV in Africa. One thing that you’ll continuously hear, Curt, about statistics is this: **Correlation does not equal causation.** You’re gonna need better indicators than that. Cuz does that mean only 80% of the people living in the gated communities own a TV? Or does it mean that in the slums and poorest locations of the united states that the fact is 80% of them are going to be owning a TV? It doesn’t really work that way. Hell, if you used the Polls and surveys conducted here on the Dope and tried to apply it to the real world- Republicans would be a trying breed, and mainstream religion is nearly dead then! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/87 "2009-10-31T09:04:10Z")
We’ll never know what Africa would have been like today if we hadn’t kidnapped fifteen million of its people beginning centuries ago. We are just playing _What If…?_ > [@](#): > > **hamhawk** : Considering that the average welfare recipient today lives better than any king or queen did 100 or 200 years ago… Nonsense. Think of the luxuries of the Czars of Russia, the courts of Louis XIV and Louis XVI in France, and even Victorian and Edwardian Palaces. Besides, what does this have to do with decendents of African slaves? To the best of my knowledge, most welfare recepients are still white. Have you ever been inside public housing? A trailer park? > [@](#): > > **Brain Glutton** : White Southerners should consider Martin Luther King, Jr., a greater Southern hero than Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee; he did more of real value for the South, including the white South, than any of them. I doubt that you will have any argument on Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee. But why restrict Martin Luther King, Jr.'s heroism to the South? He is a national hero, not just a Southern hero. And don’t make so many assumptions about what _white_ Southerners feel and what we don’t feel. > [@](#): > > **Sailboat** : In the same way, “lucky” or not, the current situation of African Americans does not let the slaveholders (generally Southern)… **Sailboat** , some Northern states had slaves beginning in the 1600s and lasting generally until the early 1800s. Most Southern states did not have slavery until much later and for a much shorter time period, but lasting up until the end of the Civil War. New York had slaves for over 200 years. And the density of slave ownership was at its greatest at one point in Philadelphia where 1 in 10 owned slaves. > [@](#): > > **Brain Glutton** : But why was it, that the North was industrialized and industrializing while the South was almost purely agrarian? Along with the things that you mentioned, there is a difference in the soil and, in some cases, the amount of boulders brought down during the ice age. > [@](#): > > **aruvqan** : …go to school, get an education and get your ass a job. You mean like **POTUS**? Your harangue doesn’t seem to have much punch anymore. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/88 "2009-10-31T12:13:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I think the vast majority of slaves would disagree with you. I’m pretty sure "the vast majority of slaves"are already dead and have no opinion on it.And if they dont agree that african americans are on average, better off than africans,well theres always that option…GO BACK…shit I don’t think you can even say the standard of living is even in same ballpark. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/89 "2009-10-31T12:27:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you might want to read the whole thread before making assumptions about the standard of living in Africa- and as far as the internet, where do you think 419 scams come from? Then why can’t they feed themselves?How much food and medicine every single day is shipped to the various starving countries in africa?I dont have the time to do the research right now.Why can’t they provide their own mesh tents to keep mosquitos and malaria from killing them?I do in fact have two friends who live in and were born in South Africa,they hate it ,say its dangerous murders happen constantly and have never had a fair election,the gal i know says she ows over $16,000 for her two boys middle schooling,not private school she says its “public school”.btw they are both whites that i know.they tell me for most part the blacks live outside of town in shanties and there is nonstop tension between the races.also the woman friend of mine says you cant even call the cops unless someone is murdered because they’ll mess with you,want money etc…i’ll call her for more details if need be…all in all i’m thinkin the worst ghetto in america is a cakewalk in comparison… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/90 "2009-10-31T12:58:21Z")
Plus they steal SHIFT keys and ENTER buttons! ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/91 "2009-10-31T13:30:26Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > Then why can’t they feed themselves? Who’s they? A food exporter like Cote d’Ivoire. Not all of Africa is Somalia. > [@](#): > > How much food and medicine every single day is shipped to the various starving countries in africa?I dont have the time to do the research right now. Well, how much? I guess the short answer is you don’t have a bloody clue and are merely spouting off superficial stereotypes based on a few minutes of American network television. To repeat, not all of Africa is Somalia nor Dar Fur. > [@](#): > > Why can’t they provide their own mesh tents to keep mosquitos and malaria from killing them? Who’s they? Malaria kills by the way, not mosquitos, which are merely a vector. Of course in truly fucked up countries such as Congo Kinshasha, the level of poverty is such that aide in the form of netting is useful, but that does not mean all of Africa is Congo Kinshasha. Dakar, Abidjan, Accra are actually quite liveable cities. > [@](#): > > I do in fact have two friends who live in and were born in South Africa,they hate it ,say its dangerous murders happen constantly and have never had a fair election, Oh the poor babies. Actually South Africa has had since 94 a series of fair elections, after the Apartheid regime was ended. Now, the murders situation and crime rate is indeed terrible, thanks to Mbeki having no sense of proportion relative to the past. However, one can well understand that generation’s aversion to the police, given the Apartheid regime used police for repression, not providing security to the common man (unless said common fellow had the right colour skin). So, if you’re (as it is evident you are) basing your opinions on Africa on some disgruntled cry baby Afrikaaner or English - and cry baby is indeed the term since in fact Whites live very well indeed in South Africa - well, you’re merely going to be repeating racist tripe. > [@](#): > > the gal i know says she ows over $16,000 for her two boys middle schooling,not private school she says its “public school”. And…? Pining for the days when the Darkies knew their places? ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/92 "2009-10-31T13:32:50Z")
[quote=“Zoe, post:87, topic:514818”] We’ll never know what Africa would have been like today if we hadn’t kidnapped fifteen million of its people beginning centuries ago. We are just playing _What If…?_ Nonsense. Think of the luxuries of the Czars of Russia, the courts of Louis XIV and Louis XVI in France, and even Victorian and Edwardian Palaces. Besides, what does this have to do with decendents of African slaves? To the best of my knowledge, most welfare recepients are still white. Have you ever been inside public housing? A trailer park? Did the czars have a/c when it was 110 out?did they have a sealy posture pedic bed?A refrigerator?did they have whatever fruit or vege they wanted all year around?if they wanted to see a relative who lived 40 miles away could they drive there in 20 mins as they chat on their cell phone?how about eating a big mac?or a hot shower at exect temp you want it,i doubt they had that!how about a coke?shit even the women look way better now because of hair/makeup etc.loltheres no way if royalty from 18th century could spend a week here and now they’d wanna go back.would you? Yes I lived in two different trailor parks in my early to late 20s,appr 7 years I spent in them.Without a doubt those were best years of my adult life.Hell the second one was even a _double wide_…lol just my 2 cents though:p[Along with the things that you mentioned, there is a difference in the soil and, in some cases, the amount of boulders brought down during the ice age. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/93 "2009-10-31T13:49:41Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Who’s they? > > A food exporter like Cote d’Ivoire. > > Not all of Africa is Somalia. > > Well, how much? I guess the short answer is you don’t have a bloody clue and are merely spouting off superficial stereotypes based on a few minutes of American network television. > > To repeat, not all of Africa is Somalia nor Dar Fur. > > Well NOBODY IN AMERICA STARVES TO DEATH!If they do its because they wanted to die or obviously werent all there,so it’s just a case of "survival of the fittest.And I cant recall a time when africa or any country for that matter has had to send food here to avert mass starvations.Not in my lifetime for sure. > > Who’s they? Malaria kills by the way, not mosquitos, which are merely a vector.Well then I 'd say that damn mosquito bite is what killed a person,prevent the bite avoid malaria,whats ur point? > > Of course in truly fucked up countries such as Congo Kinshasha, the level of poverty is such that aide in the form of netting is useful, but that does not mean all of Africa is Congo Kinshasha. Dakar, Abidjan, Accra are actually quite liveable cities. > > Oh the poor babies. > > Actually South Africa has had since 94 a series of fair elections, after the Apartheid regime was ended._And youve investigated that how_? Now, the murders situation and crime rate is indeed terrible, thanks to Mbeki having no sense of proportion relative to the past. However, one can well understand that generation’s aversion to the police, given the Apartheid regime used police for repression, not providing security to the common man (unless said common fellow had the right colour skin). > > So, if you’re (as it is evident you are) basing your opinions on Africa on some disgruntled cry baby Afrikaaner or English - and cry baby is indeed the term since in fact Whites live very well indeed in South Africa - well, you’re merely going to be repeating racist tripe.Only one i hear being a crybaby here is you! > > And…? > > Pining for the days when the Darkies knew their places? Don’t make me invoke my logical thinkin classes i had in college ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/94 "2009-10-31T14:20:31Z")
Hey, you’re damn lucky to live in a society where you can get a useless college education. Those guys in Africa can only _dream_ of the day they can get that! ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/95 "2009-10-31T16:41:59Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > Don’t make me invoke my logical thinkin classes i had in college “Logical thinkin”? Leaving aside the dubious proposition that you have done college coursework (if so, you are owed a reimbursement), I’d rather you invoke the Stop Making Up Tripe skills. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/96 "2009-10-31T17:11:20Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > **I’m pretty sure "the vast majority of slaves"are already dead and have no opinion on it.** Thus my reply: “I think the vast majority of slaves would disagree with you.” to your inane statement. But then again, I really didn’t expect you to completely comprehend that statement. 70 to 80% is probably a good success mark. > [@](#): > > And if they dont agree that african americans are on average, better off than africans,well theres always that option…GO BACK…shit I don’t think you can even say the standard of living is even in same ballpark. Out of curiosity, answer me this: “What’s the debate here?” 1. “African-Americans currently have a better standard of living then most Africans” 2. "Africans who were enslaved are lucky, because at some point in the distant future some of their descendants will have a better standard of living then most Africans. " I am curious as I don’t think you even understand the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/97 "2009-10-31T22:05:56Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > Did the czars have a/c when it was 110 out? I don’t think the Russian czars had to worry about 110 F heat very often. And besides, when the seasons did become uncomfortable, royals could simply head off to their summer palace. Personally, if I could choose between spending my summers here in Memphis (with the interior AC at my office cranked up so it’s freezing cold, while it’s baking hot outdoors), or spending them at Balmoral Castle in the fresh air of the Scottish Highlands, there’d no contest–off to Balmoral right away! I just don’t have the kind of financial resources that royalty would have for travel, nor do I have a huge household staff to take care of my “principal” home while I’m away. > [@](#): > > did they have a sealy posture pedic bed?A refrigerator?did they have whatever fruit or vege they wanted all year around? 1. No (but judging by palace exhibitions, royal beds look fairly comfy). 2. [Kind of](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_low-temperature_technology), esp. in the 19th century (and ice harvesting had been in use long before mechanical refrigeration was an option). 3. Yes, to some extent–beginning in the 15th century, royalty (and even wealthy commoners) in northern Europe regularly imported citrus fruits from warmer climates. Poorer citizens didn’t have the same kind of access, needless to say. > [@](#): > > if they wanted to see a relative who lived 40 miles away could they drive there in 20 mins as they chat on their cell phone?how about eating a big mac? Why drive when you can stay at home and receive them as guests at your palace? And in the 19th century, if you did feel like leaving the manor, train travel was an option–and [very pampered train travel](http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r147.html), too. You have to ask yourself, which is preferable–fighting with all the other commoners in gridlocked car traffic, or sitting back and enjoying the ride while someone else takes care of you? And as for communication, you underestimate the speed and availability of telegraphs in the 19th century. > [@](#): > > or a hot shower at exect temp you want it,i doubt they had that!how about a coke?shit even the women look way better now because of hair/makeup etc.loltheres no way if royalty from 18th century could spend a week here and now they’d wanna go back.would you? Of course royalty could have a bath drawn at the desired temperature–your servants would heat it up for you and let you know when it’s cooled down enough for your comfort. And many people would willingly forgo the pleasures of carbonated soda and bland, processed burger meat in favor of having the finest wines and cuisine at your beck and call, all hours of the day. Your last remark about how women “look better now because of hair/makeup etc.” is either spoken in ignorance of pre-21st century fashion and cosmetics (which royalty and the aristocracy have always indulged in, far more than we do today), or it’s such a subjective and culturally-based opinion that it’s impossible to consider seriously. You may have a different conception of feminine beauty today than someone from the 18th century would have had, but in their day, women like [Sarah Siddons](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Thomas_Gainsborough_015.jpg) (as portrayed by Gainsborough) or [Madame Rimsky-Korsakov](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Winterhalter%2C_Franz_Xaver_-_Barbara_Dmitrievna_Mergassov_Rimsky-Korsakova_-_1864_.jpg) (as portrayed by Winterhalter) were gorgeous–and in my eyes, still gorgeous today. When she was young, [Queen Victoria](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Winterhalter_-_Queen_Victoria_1843.jpg) was pretty cute, too, in my 21st-century opinion–far different from the dumpy old widow that people usually think of when they hear her name. This question of whether or not a pre-modern royal would prefer living as a modern commoner comes up often on the SDMB, and many posters automatically assume that, since they themselves couldn’t imagine giving up their electronic resources and on-demand entertainment, that no one time-travelling from the past would want to live without them, either. We forget about how culturally rich past periods of history were in their own way. I really doubt that a pre-modern royal would really prefer to live as a modern commoner, no matter how glitzy our consumer goods would seem, instead of living as an exceptionally wealthy and privileged royal–UNLESS that royal were a sickly sort that would benefit from modern medical care. I would concede that people from any walk of life (and any time period) would give up their customary privileges in exchange for a longer and a pain-free life. But if we’re talking about a royal who is generally in good health and not suffering from, say, a congenital disease, then I’d still maintain that such a royal would prefer their times and privileges to ours as 21st-century common folk. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/98 "2009-11-01T00:03:17Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > Don’t make me invoke my logical thinkin classes i had in college I wouldn’t dream of it. Logical thinkin be’s hard. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/99 "2009-11-02T05:06:52Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > “Logical thinkin”? > > Leaving aside the dubious proposition that you have done college coursework (if so, you are owed a reimbursement), I’d rather you invoke the Stop Making Up Tripe skills. I’m invoking the “STFU DORK” reimbursement upside yo head… ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818/100 "2009-11-02T05:23:22Z")
You guys are VASTLY over estimating the value of consumer goods. I spent two years in Cameroon, and am now spending two years in China. Although I have way more consumer goods here in China, I would go back to Cameroon in a heartbeat. In Cameroon I was a beloved and respected leader in the community. In China, I am treated as a second class human. In Cameroon, the community pitched in to give me the best house they could. It was a small but clean place with mud walls, concrete floors and a beautiful yard surrounded by flowering trees. Here, the school offloaded a tiny dark apartment that nobody else would rent on the foreigner. Sure, it has air conditioning. But in Cameroon we beat the heat by sleeping out under the stars. Yeah, I have my own TV. But boy do I miss spending my evenings at the local bar watching soap operas with the teachers from my school. We do have better taxi service here in China, but half of the time taxis will pass me right by once they see the color of my skin. Yeah, I have a multi-media classroom. But it is a blow that I get the leftover classes that the Chinese teachers did not want. We do have sidewalks and paved roads, but the thrill of it goes away when every time you walk out people point at you and literally laugh in your face. In Cameroon, they called me “Hadja” or “Dada”, both terms of respect. Here even my closest friends still refer to me as “foreigner,” and we won’t even get into the derogatory terms I hear whispered every time I go outside. In Cameroon, it did suck to have to go four hours down a dirt road to get exotic consumer goods like “shampoo.” But once I got to the store, the owner would share his dinner with me and take me to meet the family. Here, I have a nice supermarket right next to my house. But I’m always waited on last. Chinese people will always get served before I do. A Cameroonian night club was often a mud hut with a string of Christmas lights, but the men lined up to dance with such a beautiful and exotic creature as me. Here, we have world class dance clubs, but as soon as I get on the floor men start grabbing my boobs and ass (which they would never dream of doing to the Chinese women there) because they think they can get away with it. So think about which life you’d rather have. In my experience, all of the running water, gadgets, reliable electricity, etc. in the world cannot make up for the real meat of life- friendship and respect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-slaves-lucky/514818.md?page=6)