You sound like your not a happy person,and long for “the good old days of yesteryear”.Sorry,but I seriously think you misjudge the extent that technology has improved our lives.Do you really think they could import fruits and vegetables from halfway across the world in a timely enough manner to still be fresh?I know they couldnt.Be real.I think being able to brush your teeth with a mint flavored toothpaste,drink your coffee with w/e flavored creamer you prefer,quad blade razor,the list goes on and on from the minute we wake up till we go to bed our daily lives are far superior to our ancestors.
I thought it fairly obvious that he wasn’t talking about “our” lives in comparison with the “our” of yesteryear (i.e. average schmoes), but the lives of the top one precent of one percent of one percent of the social order; upper royalty.
Sure, with modern efficiency, a million can live luxuriously where one did a century before, but, y’know… duh.
Anyway, don’t call people dorks.
First, Hamhawk, young lad, I’d take a moment to read the rules, in particular those around comportment and doubtless electronic foot accessories.
Otherwise, it remains useful as an observation that if you’re going to participate in Great Debates, serially making tripe up and hand waving about “statistics” isn’t going to lead to great success.
To each his own, or in the ancient observation: De gustibus non est disputandum.
However, given the degree to which a majority of any given(*) population strives after better material living, and goods, regardless of the philosophical or personal tastes that might be invoked, it would appear rather a fundamental urge and need.
Material comforts have a lot to be said for them, saving labour on boring chores, enabling cleaner and thus healthier living standards. There is much to be said, from the individual human’s narrow point of view in living to 70 versus 40.
Ah the ancient primate desire to be a top monkey. Runs deep. Often correlates quite well with better access to material living and in our cousin primates, generally better health expectations.
Pity the Chinese are less impressed by whitey, but c’est la vie.
Sorry, it rather sounds as if you’re pining for status, a status largely due to your being une blanche. I’m afraid that’s not terribly enlightening as to the question around the OP.
(*: Yes, I am sure someone can cite a small exceptional population or two, old believer Mennonites, etc, but I refer to national aggregates)
It’s entirely relevent to the OP, in that it illustrates:
[ol]
[li]Being a low-status person (like many blacks through American history) sucks, even if you have lots of consumer goods. (note this also ties into the “king then or welfare now” hijack.)[/li][li]Life in Africa has it’s upsides, and there are plenty of people who would enjoy living there even with less access to consumer goods.[/li][/ol]
Believe it or not, I’ve known plenty of African in Africa who have lived abroad in more developed countries and yet have chosen to return to their home villages to live a life surrounded by their family, friends and culture. Really, you sound like one of those New Yorkers that is convinced that everyone wants to move to New York and is somehow in the process of moving there.
(Anyway, it’s true that in Cameroon people first liked me because I was white. But then they learned to like me because I hug their kids, share my food, have a great sense of Africa-style fashion, can dance to Ivorian pop all night and spent my spare time getting libraries and youth centers started. My humanity quickly became more important than my skin. That, I’m afraid, will probably never happen in China. Here, I will always be my race first, and then my gender, and probably never my self.)
If I squint hard and abstract away from your rather “special” position… no I don’t see the relevance. Sorry, a college educated white girl from… California I think?.. who takes a contract visit to Africa, likes the feeling of being VIP in a small pond and feels put upon that the Chinese aren’t as awed by white people, isn’t telling me much about Africans nor African descendants in North America.
Anyway, De gustibus non est disputandum.
Anecdote is not data. The data say that large numbers of Africans (including North Africans) take substantial risk to life and limb to try to get access to better material living conditions, and once there overwhelmingly stick it out.
Of course there are some returnees - although they seem to return once they have created a nice little capital cushion for themselves.
Whatever I “sound” like, I don’t look at the world through the rose tinted glasses of romantic anecdote. Certainly Sub Saharan Africa is not the hell-hole that many posters in this thread imagine (not all of it at any rate), but to piously abstract away from the real needs and attraction of material well-being that sends literally thousands to trek across the Sahara… That’s bloody deluded in the opposite direction.
So spare me the sounds like, the data say a good portion of the population is desperately motivated to seek better material conditions (or the mirage thereof).
Your nostalgia is well noted, sorry you don’t feel special any more. I have a tiny little violin to play on if you desire.
QFT
Neither accusations of lying nor direct personal insults are permitted in Great Debates.
Take it to the Pit or don’t post it.
[ /Moderating ]
Making personal insults. however thinly veiled, while attacking other posters does not promote the discussion.
Dial it back.
[ /Moderating ]
Thanks for that, now what do the rest of the words in your post mean?
Then why don’t we see many people, black or white, move to Africa or other third world nations and live as the benevolent rich man in town? Some expatriates do it, showing that the cultural transition is not impossible if you’re motivated, yet few folks do.
Theorizing is all well and good, but it’s what people really choose to do that reveals their preferences.
If you look at places like Thailand, you’ll see TONS of foreigners settling down and making a comfortable life for themselves. And it’s pretty common for people to retire to Mexico or other Central American countries. I know quite a few people riding out the recession here in China. Of course, plenty of people are more comfortable around their own friends, family and culture and would prefer not to leave their home countries.
Why isn’t Africa hot with ex pats? One (and I’ll be honest here) is that many westerners do not see Africans as appealing romantic partners- one of the big draws of Asia. Another is that quality health care is often inaccessible and foreign travel can be extremely expensive (my last-minute ticket to Cameroon cost $5,000). Also, there are few ex pat friendly facilities (supermarkets, English-language cinemas, etc.) outside of the capital cities, but the capital cities can be dangerous and unpleasant. Finally, there is a lot of ignorance about Africa that makes people not even consider it as an option.
However, of the 30 people I went to Cameroon with (who were pretty much randomly assigned- these were not people with any special interest in Africa) around 8 of them stayed in Cameroon for an additional year- a few are still there two years later. Another 6 or so found US based jobs that require heavy African travel. So, if more people were willing to give it a shot and see for themselves, they might be surprised to find that they like it.
But if people were as status-driven as you claim, and love to be the big fish of a small pond, you’d see a torrent of expats, not a trickle. I mean, look at immigrants to the US: that’s a much bigger hurdle to jump with fewer educational resources available, yet plenty of people know a good thing when they see it and come here, getting lower social status but better material wealth. You do not see a comparable exodus of people, which your theory would require.
Obviously the ex pat life is not appealing to most people, almost certainly because it usually means leaving your family, friends, language and culture. For most people, the lure of increased status does not make up for that. We are not all robots with one and only one motivation, you know.
In general, high-status people do not immigrate to America without having secured a high status job. Doctors and IT specialists usually continue to be doctors and IT specialists. Often they are rich enough to maintain close times to their homelands. The exception would be people fleeing political instability, who often do take a status hit and generally are not very happy about it. Your standard economic migrants are another story. But even they often are only in America because their work supports their entire family back home. And no small number of immigrants find that once they get to America, it’s not really what they thought it would be.
You’d be surprised at how many people you meet in Mexico who have spent some time in the United States, made some money, and returned to Mexico. It seemed like half the people I met in Mexico had spent some time in California. At first I was confused- isn’t our country the best and doesn’t everyone want to go there forever? But then I realized, no. It’s not so straightforward as “America is the awesome promised land everyone wishes they were in!”
You can’t talk about the state of Africa without also considering how badly the Europeans screwed it up, using the same kind of philosophy that supported slavery. I did live in the Congo, right after independence. You might not be aware that King Leopold made the place his private domain in the 19th century, enslaved many, and worked them to their deaths in the mines. This was so bad that even the Europe of 1900 saw it as evil. When I lived there many of the senior government leaders consisted of the handful of Congolese college graduates. Despite the fact that a modern campus of Louvanium University was located right out side of what was then still Leopoldville, the Belgians did not allow any Congolese to attend until right before independence.
What the continent would be like without colonialism we don’t know. I suspect a lot better.
I grew up in the 1950s without the internet, VCRs, UHF, cable, DVDs, microwaves, cellphones, etc. etc. I did have seven whole channels to watch, being from New York which I think had about the most. It was just fine. When my father came home he was home, and didn’t have to check his email the way I do. Of course we did not have the massive benefit of being able to see dancing cats on YouTube.
I hope you don’t feel too underprivileged because you don’t have 3D TV in your living room, which people 20 years from now will have, no doubt. Please try to hold on despite living in such primitive conditions.
It’s purely relative and experiential, and I wouldn’t have the point of reference… I suppose the only ones who could answer with perspective are those African Americans who have lived in and/or repatriated to West Africa, and West Africans who have emigrated to America. Would they have been better off living through, and possibly not surviving the Western Imperialism and Tribalism/Civil Wars of Africa during the last 400 years?
…and are they smart enough to realize their own cultural bias? Can you say that American racism is worse than the racism of the tribal and caste systems that are enforced in Africa?
I would like to edit my responce with the understood, yet not explicitly stated.
Well, possibly. It’s easy to look at ethnic cleansing such as in Rwanda and assume that the cause is African prejudices about other Africans, but the root of most such wars is really scarcity. They’re competing for arable land, water and housing - and nowadays for oil and diamonds too. The ethnic and religious hatred just makes it easier for them to fight the wars they’d be fighting anyway.
In America we don’t really have to worry about famine or drought.
The Country with the greatest natural resources in the world can’t organize for social, religous, and ideological figgerences. I agree. Until they decide, we are left indecisive.
I don’t think the word “lucky” could be applied to the descendants of slaves. They may or may not have benefited from the migration and even that is hard to measure. Is someone who lives in a stick hut less happy than someone in a house?
At best the descendants of slaves have a more stable environment with a greater number of opportunities to pursue.