# Were the Tupac and/or Michael Jackson "holograms" actually 3d images? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 30, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630 "2014-05-30T14:40:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/1 "2014-05-30T14:40:34Z")
It is of course almost impossible to tell by watching 2D video of it, but it kinda looked like the they were basically flat animations that were just in a different plane than the other people on the stage. Or were they actual 3d images? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/2 "2014-05-30T14:47:42Z")
It was the Pepper’s Ghost illusion, projecting onto a sheet of glass. Therefore, in essence, 2D. Though there may have been 3D involved in the creation of the footage. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/3 "2014-05-30T15:07:48Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > It was the Pepper’s Ghost illusion, projecting onto a sheet of glass. Also known as the “Scooby-Doo Gambit” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/4 "2014-05-30T20:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **GuanoLad** : > > It was the Pepper’s Ghost illusion, projecting onto a sheet of glass. Therefore, in essence, 2D. Pepper’s Ghost is fully 3D. Video projection onto a screen, however, is 2D. I’m guessing they actually did the latter-- I’ve certainly seen other performance gimmicks labeled as holograms that worked that way. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/5 "2014-05-30T20:21:44Z")
Should have asked the question sooner. I was at a party over the weekend with a guy who did a fair bit of work on the Michael Jackson one. But I can’t go back in time and ask him interesting technical questions about it. And I’m unlikely to see him again soon. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/6 "2014-05-31T00:49:36Z")
The work I’ve seen on it indicates that it was 2D. Nothing that would be necessary to make it 3D seems to be involved. The planes do seem to be slanted in a way to make them not look so flat, they still are flat. They count on the distance from the stage to make this less noticeable. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/7 "2014-05-31T01:29:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Pepper’s Ghost is fully 3D. Video projection onto a screen, however, is 2D. I see what you’re saying. But the principle remains the same, with reflections onto tilted sheets of glass and not any actual holographic technology. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/8 "2014-05-31T01:35:04Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > It is of course almost impossible to tell by watching 2D video of it, but it kinda looked like the they were basically flat animations that were just in a different plane than the other people on the stage. Or were they actual 3d images? Link for the pop culture challenged? ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/9 "2014-05-31T17:01:38Z")
The image of Tupac and Jackson is flat as it is a reflection on a flat transparent reflective surface. The 3D effect for the live audience is caused by placing real people and/or objects in front of and behind this surface creating the illusion that the projected image is “among” the real stuff. The Tupac performance used a tech called Musion Eyeliner which projects the image onto a white floor. Above this floor is a special reflective proprietary foil screen. The bottom length of this screen is at the foot of the stage and it extends out and up at a 45 degree angle towards the audience. It reflects the image on the floor below it but is clear so people and things can be seen on the stage through it. To the audience it appears that the projected/reflected image and the live people are on the stage together. I saw it at the Universal Studios attraction “Disaster!” which uses it to make it appear as if Christopher Walken is there. I understand it is also used in the Harry Potter attraction. The company that did Michael Jackson uses a similar arrangement but the the image is projected, again from above, but onto a rear projection screen suspended above and parallel to the stage floor. The transparent screen is again a 45 degree angle to the audience reflecting the image that is above. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/10 "2014-05-31T17:47:09Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Link for the pop culture challenged? Seconded - what are we talking about? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/11 "2014-06-01T01:09:52Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Link for the pop culture challenged? > [@zoid](#): > > Seconded - what are we talking about? [This happened](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDRTghGZ7XU) a couple of weeks ago. And a couple of years ago a similar appearance by the long-deceased Tupac. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/12 "2014-06-01T01:26:04Z")
OK, that was singularly unimpressive. Basically all it was was a movie of Michael Jackson with some dudes wearing miners’ lights dancing in front of it. It didn’t look like they even had any live people behind him. And if **randwill** ’s description is accurate, it’s a sort of combination of Pepper’s Ghost and flat projection. It’s flat not because the (half-) mirror is flat, but because the floor it’s reflecting is flat. Put a real (or impersonator or animatronic) Michael Jackson underneath the floor, and you would get a 3-D image of him/it. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/13 "2014-06-01T01:31:05Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > [This happened](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDRTghGZ7XU) a couple of weeks ago. And a couple of years ago a similar appearance by the long-deceased Tupac. Billboard Music awards? That’s the only reference I can find to it. ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/14 "2014-06-01T02:17:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, that was singularly unimpressive. Basically all it was was a movie of Michael Jackson with some dudes wearing miners’ lights dancing in front of it. It didn’t look like they even had any live people behind him. These presentations will never look impressive on television because you lose the third dimension. On TV, yes, it just looks like a video of Michael Jackson. However, it should be noted that the movie of Michael Jackson in this case was created without Michael Jackson. It is a wholly computer generated figure. Here’s an article that talks about the projection process as well has the difficult task of making a life-like M.J. from scratch: > **[Meet the conjurers of Michael Jackson's ghost](https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/05/22/michael-jackson-billboard-music-awards-illusion/9437881/)** > > USA TODAY gets an exclusive peek into the process of resurrecting the King of Pop. Make sure to check out the schematic views at the bottom of the page which explains how it all works better than I could describe it above. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/15 "2014-06-01T13:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > These presentations will never look impressive on television because you lose the third dimension. It never had the third dimension to begin with. > [@](#): > > However, it should be noted that the movie of Michael Jackson in this case was created without Michael Jackson. It is a wholly computer generated figure. OK, that’s impressive. ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/16 "2014-06-01T14:23:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It never had the third dimension to begin with. The presentation has actual physical depth in that there are people and set pieces in front of and behind the screen onto which the character’s image is being projected. To people in the audience with depth perception this creates an illusion of 3D. The projected character doesn’t have depth and never will as long as it is projected on a flat surface. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/17 "2014-06-01T14:41:54Z")
I wondered about that when they did the Tupac one, although I certainly wasn’t going to watch an awards show to find out! Wasn’t there a similar one of somebody else around the same time? How can these things be called “holograms” by any definition of the word? ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/18 "2014-06-01T16:19:49Z")
The makers of the Michael Jackson presentation reject the use of the word ‘hologram’ in the “USA Today” article I posted a link to above. The current issue of “Entertainment Weekly” has a feature titled, “Big Moments in Hologram History”. It starts with Dennis Gabor inventing the concept of holography in 1947 and includes Holo-Leia in the first “Star Wars” movie, the holodeck from “Star Trek:TNG” and Tupac Shakur at Coachella among several others. None of the things they list are actual holograms. Until we have actual holograms I’m sure the word will be used to indicate hologramish things. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/19 "2014-06-02T00:55:20Z")
> [@](#): > > The presentation has actual physical depth in that there are people and set pieces in front of and behind the screen onto which the character’s image is being projected. To people in the audience with depth perception this creates an illusion of 3D. The projected character doesn’t have depth and never will as long as it is projected on a flat surface. None of the audience was close enough for stereoscopic 3D, and it looked like all of the people “behind” Jackson were just part of the same movie. To make best use of the effect, they really should have had some of the dudes with mining lamps (who were seen before the curtain opened) walk around behind the screen. And again, the surface being flat is irrelevant. Mirrors are flat, but that doesn’t stop them from producing 3D images. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-the-tupac-and-or-michael-jackson-holograms-actually-3d-images/689630/20 "2014-06-02T02:16:25Z")
Gorillaz had a “live” performance at a concert or awards show several years ago that was basically the same Pepper’s-Ghostish technology, I think.