# Were there fashion taboos for men in ancient Rome? Greece? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 16, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388 "2007-09-16T14:35:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/1 "2007-09-16T14:35:58Z")
I was wondering about the Rome part, but threw in Greece at the last second. Anyway, here we are in September, and after Labor day, we are not supposed to wear white - such as slacks for men, and dresses for women. (A male barn owl, I’ll be wearing white cotton slacks to the 11 o’clock Mass this morning.) In the movies I’ve seen, just about all the (upper class?) Roman men wore white togas. Was there a proscription against more colorful attire? If a Roman Senator showed up for the games wearing a Tartan Plaid get up, would he be thrown to the lions? 😃😃😃 Were the ancient Greeks fashion bound? I didn’t ask about women because I figure they had freedom of choice so long as they weren’t entirely naked - in public, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/2 "2007-09-16T14:39:29Z")
My WAG: men couldn’t dress as women, and they couldn’t dress as someone with higher status or much lower status then they rightfully had. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/3 "2007-09-16T15:04:54Z")
[QUOTE=BarnOwl] In the movies I’ve seen, just about all the (upper class?) Roman men wore white togas. Was there a proscription against more colorful attire? If a Roman Senator showed up for the games wearing a Tartan Plaid get up, would he be thrown to the lions? [/QUOTE] The HBO series Rome (which got a lot of little details right, or so I am told) had Marc Antony wearing a Paisley toga at one point. Paisley! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/4 "2007-09-16T15:11:19Z")
Looking at the Wikipedia entry on [paisley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_%28design%29), though, it appears that the pattern may have originated in Persia during the Safavid Dynasty (1501-1736). So Mark Antony in Paisley must have been an anachronism. I’d better let someone with more expertise on the ancients tackle this one. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/5 "2007-09-16T15:37:17Z")
There were very specific styles of toga for different points of a man’s life. According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga), non-citizens, the poor, and banished Romans were forbidden to wear the toga; soldiers didn’t wear it eather, leading to the expression _cedant arma togae_, “let arms cede to the toga” (to civil power). Most Roman men wore the plain white _toga virilis_ starting from legal age. Before adulthood, boys wore the _toga praetexta_, with a purple stripe on its border; interestingly, this was also worn by holders of high political office and certain priests. The dark _toga pulla_ was for mourning, the richly embroidered _toga picta_ was worn by generals during triumphs and certain very high officials on special occasions (including the Emperor - perhaps it was what was intended by the “paisley toga” mentioned above), and the purple _toga trabea_ was worn by kings, augurs, and (when pure purple) by the gods. Finally, the _toga candida_ was made pure, dazzling white with chalk, and was worn by seekers of political office - whence the term “candidate.” ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/6 "2007-09-16T16:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] There were very specific styles of toga for different points of a man’s life. According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga), non-citizens, the poor, and banished Romans were forbidden to wear the toga; soldiers didn’t wear it eather, leading to the expression _cedant arma togae_, “let arms cede to the toga” (to civil power). Most Roman men wore the plain white _toga virilis_ starting from legal age. Before adulthood, boys wore the _toga praetexta_, with a purple stripe on its border; interestingly, this was also worn by holders of high political office and certain priests. The dark _toga pulla_ was for mourning, the richly embroidered _toga picta_ was worn by generals during triumphs and certain very high officials on special occasions (including the Emperor - perhaps it was what was intended by the “paisley toga” mentioned above), and the purple _toga trabea_ was worn by kings, augurs, and (when pure purple) by the gods. Finally, the _toga candida_ was made pure, dazzling white with chalk, and was worn by seekers of political office - whence the term “candidate.” [/QUOTE] Thank you for the enightenment! Now, will someone else address the fashion guides for Roman women? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/7 "2007-09-16T16:21:21Z")
Purple was very restricted. Trousers were _declasse._ Whores wore red wigs; thus “honest” women would likely not be red haired. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/8 "2007-09-16T16:53:29Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Looking at the Wikipedia entry on [paisley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_%28design%29), though, it appears that the pattern may have originated in Persia during the Safavid Dynasty (1501-1736). So Mark Antony in Paisley must have been an anachronism. I’d better let someone with more expertise on the ancients tackle this one. [/QUOTE] This is what I could Google for _toga picta_: [http://classics.furman.edu/~rprior/imgs/RP/rp-103.jpg](http://classics.furman.edu/~rprior/imgs/RP/rp-103.jpg) Looks kinda like paisley. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/9 "2007-09-16T17:00:33Z")
For the late Republic and the early Empire, it was fashionable for men to wear their hair short and be clean shaven. Starting around the time of Emperor Hadrian, beards came into fashion, and men started wearing their hair longer. There was also a period of time when men weren’t really upposed to wear jewelry other than a ring. Remember, though, when you’re talking about Rome, you’re talking about a really long period of time. The founding of Rome is dated to around 753 BC, and the Western Empire fell in AD 476. (The eastern part of the empire didn’t fall until 1453). So, even if you just restrict yourself to Western Rome, you’re still talking about a 1200 year period. So, fashion can change a lot over that period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/10 "2007-09-16T17:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] This is what I could Google for _toga picta_: [http://classics.furman.edu/~rprior/imgs/RP/rp-103.jpg](http://classics.furman.edu/~rprior/imgs/RP/rp-103.jpg) Looks kinda like paisley. [/QUOTE] Interesting. Looks like it’s embroidered with nekkid women, too. The one on HBO’s Rome was actual paisley. I was struck by it, and remember wondering at the time whether it was anachronistic. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/11 "2007-09-16T23:18:53Z")
[QUOTE=BarnOwl] Were the ancient Greeks fashion bound? [/quote] Yes they were, although not in the same class as the Romans. In the preamble, this [professorial article](http://www.hyperhistory.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=741&op=page) makes the point that: > [@](#): > > The term ‘dress’ includes any modification of, or supplement to, the body that conveys meaning that can be ‘read’ by others. For the ancients it encompassed much more than clothes but also included beards, hairstyles, and wigs, perfumes and cosmetics, jewellery and accessories, and colour, whether of clothing, hair dye, or skin treatments (tattoos, for example). The author, quoting from Plutarch, goes on to describe the appearance of 5th century BCE politician Alcibiades who was clearly seen by the ancients as an exception to the rule of good taste in appearance: > [@](#): > > All his statecraft and eloquence and lofty purpose and cleverness was attended with great luxuriousness of life, with wanton drunkenness and lewdness, and with effeminacy in dress – he would trail long purple robes through the agora … He also had a golden shield made for himself and decorated not with ancestral insignia but with a likeness of Eros wielding a thunderbolt. The reputable men of the city looked on all these things with loathing and indignation, and they feared his contemptuous and lawless spirit. In another variation from the norm, young Athenian men would dress like Spartans, or possibly hippies, in order to distance themselves from the politics of their city-state: > [@](#): > > There were also ‘fads’ which involved groups. A familiar sight in fifth and fourth-century BC (BCE) Athens were the provocatively-fashioned ‘Laconisers’, young men who aped Spartan fashions – extravagantly long beards and short cloaks – in what was often interpreted as an advertisement of their estrangement from the democracy and indication of their sympathy for the oligarchic conservatism that Sparta represented. The comic poet Aristophanes coined the term ‘Laconomania’ for this phenomenon, whose adherents he derisively described in The Birds as ‘long-haired, hungry, dirty, and “acting like the philosopher Socrates” by carrying the Spartan cane’. Also in the 5th century BCE there is an example of fashions changing, firstly because of an eastern influence: > [@](#): > > There were, of course, innovations in ancient dress that had a more enduring impact. In the years before the Persian Wars (490-480/79 BC (BCE)), Athenian men and women had increasingly begun to adopt more luxurious fashions, favouring, for example, a linen chiton (a kind of tunic) over the simpler, woollen one of tradition (the female version of which was called a peplos). In addition, Athenian men, who had already traditionally worn their hair long, now began to sport more elaborate hairstyles. The historian Thucydides, writing in the late fifth century, described one of these styles, in which men tied their hair behind their heads in a kind of knot, or chignon, fastened with a clasp of ‘golden grasshoppers’ (Thucydides, The History of the Peloponnesian War). These extravagant fashions came to Athens from the eastern Ionian Greeks of Asia Minor, who were themselves influenced by the dress of their ‘oriental’ neighbours. and secondly because the victory over the Persians rendered eastern fashions unpopular: > [@](#): > > When against all odds the Greeks emerged victorious from the threat to their liberty posed by the Persian invasion, a reaction set in against these eastern influences. The second quarter of the fifth century BC (BCE) saw both men and women in Athens return to the traditional woollen chiton, called ‘Dorian’ for its connection with the Spartans (although the ‘Ionian’ linen chiton was never fully abandoned); and men began wearing their hair short. Indeed, long hair for Athenian men became associated with the ‘oriental’ vices of effeminacy and decadence. Aristophanes caricatured the effeminate ‘pretty boys’ who persisted in following the eastern models by wearing hairstyles such as the chignon mentioned by Thucydides. There is little doubt that this change in the style and material of Athenian garments, as well as the switch to cropped hair for men, occurred as a direct response to the encounter with the Persians. In the aftermath of their victory, the Athenians gained a new sense of their ‘Greekness’, which carried with it a pride in their superiority over what were in their eyes the luxuriously-clad, effeminate, and long-haired barbarians. . . . Some of the points made about Roman fashions are touched upon upthread, but the author makes the point that, apart from clothes, other burning issues which kept Roman women in front of the mirror were hairstyles, makeup and perfumes. _Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose._ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/12 "2007-09-16T23:21:03Z")
When were pants invented? ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/13 "2007-09-16T23:33:44Z")
Dunno, but the barbarians wore pants, and so the Romans thought they were an uncivilized fashion. ---
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/14 "2007-09-16T23:56:58Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] Dunno, but the barbarians wore pants, and so the Romans thought they were an uncivilized fashion. [/QUOTE] Yeah, and wasn’t the wearing of pants actually outlawed in Rome at one point? No cite, just recall reading that Rome outlawed pants later on (when the barbarians were starting to pose more of a problem). ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/15 "2007-09-16T23:58:43Z")
During the late republic it became the norm to wear tunics under your toga. This is significant because Cato the Younger used to wander about without one because that’s how it was done in the old days when people had better manners. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/16 "2007-09-17T00:19:03Z")
Hit reply by accident and then missed the edit window: During the late republic it became the norm to wear tunics under your toga. This is significant because Cato the Younger used to wander about without one because that’s how it was done in the old days when people had better manners. In the middle part of the empire fashions did become more Greek influenced. As I understand it Hadrian was a prime mover in this direction. Hadrian was fascinated with Greek culture and wore his hair in the Greek style. After Hadrian there was a long string of bearded emporers, which probably would have driven Cato into fits. 🙂 Anyway, here are some busts of the five good emporers. You can see the switch from “Roman” to “Greek” haircuts. [Nerva](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Nerva_Tivoli_Massimo.jpg/395px-Nerva_Tivoli_Massimo.jpg) [Trajan](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Trajan-Xanten.JPG) [Hadrian](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Hadrien-ven.JPG/510px-Hadrien-ven.JPG) [Antoninus Pius](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Antoninus_Pius_Glyptothek_Munich_337.jpg/397px-Antoninus_Pius_Glyptothek_Munich_337.jpg) [Marcus Aurelius](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/Marcus_aurelius_bust2.jpg) Starting with Hadrian it’s beard theater for 100 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/17 "2007-09-17T00:30:17Z")
Although the Greeks didn’t have alot of hangups with male nudity showing one’s glans was considered indecent. Circumcised men (& those with naturally short foreskins) would pull down the skin left on their shaft and tie it in place with a string. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/18 "2007-09-17T01:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] There was also a period of time when men weren’t really supposed to wear jewelry other than a ring. [/QUOTE] For that matter, gold rings (at least traditionally) were reserved for the _equites_ class, as opposed to the standard iron rings. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/19 "2007-09-17T04:20:15Z")
I’ve been watching my DVDs of HBO’s Rome lately. At least according to said show, soldiers were not permitted to wear their uniforms (or armor or weapons) within the city of Rome. Armed soldiers within the city walls more or less meant martial law. Red cloaks were considered part of a soldier’s unfiorm, and therefore not allowed. In one commentary track, the show’s historical consultant acknowledges that the red bands on one character’s toga were too broad; the breadth of the bands indicated seniority within the roman senate, and the character in question was a newly-appointed senator. In the same episode, one of the veteran senators complains that one of the new senators from Gaul was wearring _earrings_. As dyeing processes for different colors had significantly different costs, certain colors were more prestigious than others. Purple cloth was the most expensive and prestigious (despite its fishy smell), and was associated with royalty. When Juilius Caesar began wearing purple, it was one more sign that he fancied himself a monarch. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-fashion-taboos-for-men-in-ancient-rome-greece/419388/20 "2007-09-17T18:06:28Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] Although the Greeks didn’t have alot of hangups with male nudity showing one’s glans was considered indecent. Circumcised men (& those with naturally short foreskins) would pull down the skin left on their shaft and tie it in place with a string. [/QUOTE] The Tug-ahoy is older than I thought.