# Were there really once signs saying "No dogs or Jews/Mexicans?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 18, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567 "2005-08-18T12:22:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/41 "2005-08-19T13:46:05Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Maybe some hicks displayed a handwritten sign like that in the window of a bar or private club, but I doubt that Ace Sign Printing of Macon, Georgia churned them out by the thousands, or even tens. It would have probably been city folk that would have displayed such a sign. If the signs said Jews, they were probably Northern city folk displaying such a sign. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/42 "2005-08-19T14:36:46Z")
Well, **samclem** , I respect the points you brought up, but refuse to believe that the United States is filled with older African Americans and their children all of whom are the victims of mass hysterical hallucination. Do we all assert here that there isn’t a photo in existence that is real? That nobody took photos such as the one showing the movie theatre? That all African Americans who were adults during the period prior to the 1960’s are hallucinating and incapable of recounting images from their own life? Cause, it sure sounds that way. I’m not talking about some stupid fakey fonted sign. I’m talking about the cites I provided that are either the entire face of a movie theatre that was cleverly made up out of whole cloth, or it is the real deal. If it is the real deal then it is a valid cite and proves the point that there were indeed signs at the time that designated use of public facilities that were “colored only”. If, OTOH, every image presented in the various cites I provided can all be proven to be PhotoShop crapola, **and** there is copious proof that such signs never existed despite the recountings of literally millions of African Americans- and white folk- in the South who had to grow up facing such signs then yes, by all means, I stand corrected and will admit I was snookered. By all the cites I provided. Each and ever one of 'em. :rolleyes: Me, I find it a bit of a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/43 "2005-08-19T14:49:08Z")
Now, hold on here. It seems that an interesting question has been brought up. No one has qeustioned the authenticity of those images, but none of them specifically used the “no dogs” language. I stand by my previous statement that it is mistaken to begin with the presumption that our society could not be so classless as to have such signs. It is perfectly believable, given our history, that such signs might have existed. But did they really? Where are the photographs? Where is the specific evidence of “no dogs …” signs? I tried to take a look at Snopes, but couldn’t come up with anything there. This isn’t a question of denial. We all know that the things that are shown in the linked photographs existed. But what about the “no dogs …” signs specifically? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/44 "2005-08-19T14:55:33Z")
**Cartooniverse** – You’re missing the entire point. We’re addressing the specific wording in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/45 "2005-08-19T14:57:20Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > If it is the real deal then it is a valid cite and proves the point that there were indeed signs at the time that designated use of public facilities that were “colored only”. Nobody’s arguing that: > [@samclem](#): > > I think all of the players in this discussion would agree that there were real signs in the past that said “Colored—White,” signs that said “White only” and signs that said things of this kind. I was there in the 1940’s and 1950’s. I’m white, but I damn well noticed them. They’re aguing that the answer to this question: > [@Argent Towers](#): > > So, did these “No Dogs or (x)” signs really exist? Is “No” (or “Not on any large scale”), for various reasons, and poor “reproductions” of such signs to do not constitute proof. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/46 "2005-08-19T15:09:07Z")
Talking only about signs with the “dog” usage: It’s not hard to believe that there were individuals who would make up a homemade sign and post it in their restaurant, bar, whatever. I’m sure this happened in the UK with the “no dogs, Irish” too. But there were almost certainly no government-made or institutionalized signs which lumped dogs and [x-ethnic group] together, preventing them from entering the premises. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/47 "2005-08-19T15:20:40Z")
**elmwood, pulykamell, samclem** - loud and clear, sorry for the confusion. And I think I agree that the signs in question are well, questionable. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/48 "2005-08-19T15:24:52Z")
Personally, I trace the downfall of this country to when dogs got banned from restaurants, bars, and stores. I’d move to France if they’d stop using that stupid language of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/49 "2005-08-19T15:32:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Personally, I trace the downfall of this country to when dogs got banned from restaurants, bars, and stores. Hmmm? I never saw one of those “NO dogs/xxx/xxx” signs in the window of a Chinese restaurant. I wonder,… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/50 "2005-08-19T15:39:42Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Well, **samclem** , I respect the points you brought up, but refuse to believe that the United States is filled with older African Americans and their children all of whom are the victims of mass hysterical hallucination. Do you have a clue at all? Did you read the last post that I addressed to you? Where, anywhere in this thread, is someone disputing what you claim they are disputing? Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/51 "2005-08-19T17:02:31Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > If, OTOH, every image presented in the various cites I provided can all be proven to be PhotoShop crapola, **and** there is copious proof that such signs never existed despite the recountings of literally millions of African Americans- and white folk- in the South who had to grow up facing such signs then yes, by all means, I stand corrected and will admit I was snookered. By all the cites I provided. Each and ever one of 'em. Read the posts again, please. Like I said before, along with **pulykamell** , **samclem** and others, we don’t doubt the existence of signs simply identifying separate public accomodations. We’ve got firsthand sightings in this thread, plenty of photos, plenty of media accounts - more than enough evidence. There’s the physical evidence of where the signs used to be displayed in older public buildings in the South. Doubting the existence of such signs really didn’t even come into our minds. However, we’re **ONLY** talking about the “NO DOGS OR [ETHNIC GROUP(S)]” signs. Not the regretful “whites this way, blacks that way” or “[ethnic group] only” type signage that is typical of the Jim Crow era. Not crass [homemade](http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/immigration/hollywood.jpg) [signs](http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/immigration/whites-only.gif) that express a similar sentiment. We’re talking about mass-produced or professionally custom made signs that say “NO DOGS OR [ETHNIC GROUP(S)]” being commonplace. All I see are botched “reproductions,” second-hand accounts, FOAF tales, and “it could have happened”, but no physical proof. Show me an actual newspaper article from the era that noted the firsthand sighting of a “NO DOGS OR [ETHNIC GROUP(S)]” sign. Show me a photo from a reliable source such as LOC American Memory, a local historic society, a stock photo archive or a newspaper morgue. Show me evidence of the sign from historic ephemera, such as a stock sign catalog. It’s all there for the “WHITES ONLY” and “NO MEXICANS”-type signs. If mass-produced or professionally-made “NO DOGS OR …” signs were real and common, there should be similar evidence. “It could have happened” and “well, my dead grandmother said that there were signs _like_ that” won’t cut it, at least by Jan Harold Brunvand’s standards, and possibly Cecil’s too. On a related note, an article in [Journal of Social History](http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm) disproves the existence of “NO IRISH NEED APPLY” signs, and found only ONE newspaper ad with the phrase. Here’s an excerpt from the article: > [@](#): > > The fact that Irish vividly “remember” NINA signs is a curious historical puzzle. There are no contemporary or retrospective accounts of a specific sign at a specific location. No particular business enterprise is named as a culprit. No historian, 2 archivist, or museum curator has ever located one 3 ; no photograph or drawing exists. 4 No other ethnic group complained about being singled out by comparable signs. Only Irish Catholics have reported seeing the sign in America—no Protestant, no Jew, no non-Irish Catholic has reported seeing one. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/52 "2005-08-19T17:03:46Z")
My father was a big antique collector. He used to have a sign saying “Colored Only Water Fountain.” I’m pretty sure it was real. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/53 "2005-08-19T17:26:39Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > My father was a big antique collector. He used to have a sign saying “Colored Only Water Fountain.” I’m pretty sure it was real. ahem… > [@elmwood](#): > > However, we’re ONLY talking about the “NO DOGS OR [ETHNIC GROUP(S)]” signs. Not the regretful “whites this way, blacks that way” or “[ethnic group] only” type signage that is typical of the Jim Crow era ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/54 "2005-08-19T17:29:46Z")
FWIW, the pre-revolution sign in Shanghai declaring “No dogs or Chinese” [appears to be no more factual than NINA](http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n5p31_Weber.html). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/55 "2005-08-19T17:37:29Z")
Hm. Maybe there was no sign that said “long-haired freaky people need not apply”? Seriously, though. Are there accounts of long-haired hippie types being the target of such signs? ---
**Author:** ![Future\_days](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cab0a1/32.png) [@Future\_days](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Future_days)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/56 "2005-08-19T17:46:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Show us a picture. > > There’s a very similar story here in Toronto that was very popular a few years back, that public beaches had signs reading “No Dogs or Jews.” This story flared to life in the 80s and you still see it repeated now and then, but to my knowledge, nobody has ever been able to find a photograph of such a sign. > > The amazing similarity between these tales - the signs are always “No dogs or (insent group” - suggest they’re mostly baloney. They arent. Not in UK anyway: [http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/lib\_pages\_pdf/0322.pdf](http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/lib_pages_pdf/0322.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/57 "2005-08-19T17:52:06Z")
In my hometown, Frederick, Maryland we have the county fairgrounds. Lots of open space and few permanent buildings, like restrooms and stuff. Over the entrance to one restroom is a huge sign that says (unimaginatively) RESTROOMS. Below it, covered with the world’s cheapest, faded, washed-out paint are the words COLORED ONLY. I hope they never fix the sign. I hope when they rebuild the place they spend some money and recreate the sign. I hope kids see that sign for a hundred years and maybe some of them will think about it. We White Southerners have a lot to be proud of and a lot to be ashamed of. Sometime we just have trouble one from the other. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/58 "2005-08-19T17:55:37Z")
> [@Future days](#): > > They arent. Not in UK anyway: > > [http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/lib\_pages\_pdf/0322.pdf](http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/lib_pages_pdf/0322.pdf) Is _anyone_ actually reading the thread? > [@samclem](#): > > It’s not hard to believe that there were individuals who would make up a homemade sign and post it in their restaurant, bar, whatever. I’m sure this happened in the UK with the “no dogs, Irish” too. > > But there were almost certainly no government-made or institutionalized signs which lumped dogs and [x-ethnic group] together, preventing them from entering the premises. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/59 "2005-08-19T17:59:49Z")
> [@Future days](#): > > They arent. Not in UK anyway: > > [http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/lib\_pages\_pdf/0322.pdf](http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/lib_pages_pdf/0322.pdf) Notice that the sign was in the window of a bed and breakfast. So, we’re back to the same old story–everyone agrees that these signs appeared in random rooming situations. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567/60 "2005-08-19T18:10:57Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > My father was a big antique collector. He used to have a sign saying “Colored Only Water Fountain.” I’m pretty sure it was real. …and what the hell does this have to do with the discussion that we’re trying to have? This is getting ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-there-really-once-signs-saying-no-dogs-or-jews-mexicans/317567.md?page=4)