# Were these great Crusader helmets from \_Alexander Nevsky\_ remotely possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947 "2013-04-28T20:44:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/21 "2013-08-29T13:20:42Z")
[A very silly photo that demanded to be cited here.](http://thechive.com/2011/12/16/best-photos-of-the-week-55-photos-6/best-photos-of-week-chive-52/) ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/22 "2013-08-29T17:22:36Z")
I know the mother of the kid in #6 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/23 "2013-08-29T17:39:58Z")
The namesake of our [Arnold Winkleried](http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/Suisse-Bataille-Sempach-9juillet1386-1.jpg) made a heroic sacrifice of himself by gathering the Austrians’ pikes to his breast and opening a breach in their line. Why is William Tell by far the more famous Swiss hero? Simple: it’s more fun to shoot objects off people’s heads. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/24 "2013-08-29T17:49:52Z")
I’ve often heard it said that the common perception that Vikings had huge horns on helmets was an obvious example of mistaking opera stage props for history, with the explaination that ‘obviously’ having horns on a helmet exposes you to all sorts of risks in actual combat, so no self-respecting Viking would do it. For example, the horns could be knocked by a weapon, jarring the head. On the other hand … Japanese armour very commonly has all sorts of crests, projections and (yes) horns on their helmets. > **[File:Eboshi kabuto, yokohagi okegawa dou.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eboshi_kabuto,_yokohagi_okegawa_dou.jpg)** > > Original file (1,310 × 1,965 pixels, file size: 849 KB, MIME type: image/jpeg) > 12 January 2012 Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. > [@](#): > > Kabuto are often adorned with crests called datemono or tatemono;[6] the four types of crests were the maedate (front crest), wakidate (side crests), kashiradate (top crest), and ushirodate (rear crest). These can be family or clan emblems, or flat or sculptural objects representing animals, mythical entities, prayers or other symbols. **Horns are particularly common** , and many kabuto sport kuwagata, stylized deer horns. [emphasis added] Now, I have no doubt that as a matter of historical fact Viking helmets did not have horns on them, but I am not sure that the rationale cited was necessarly true. If having horns was such a liability, why did the Japanese do it? Or did they only have horns on armour intended for ceremonial display and not actual combat? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/25 "2013-08-29T22:04:38Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I will give you the horseback, but nobody is pulling any punches. I have dents made in my steel helmet made with rattan weapons. We do fight in a crowd :D. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02NcGTVqj6Y](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02NcGTVqj6Y) > (a couple thousand cites for hard hits) And a great video to play for any gamer who uses the phrase “My knight in heavy armor sneaks …”😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/26 "2013-08-30T03:28:46Z")
As a student of medieval history and an avid player of World of Warcraft, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at armor in WoW and boggled at how utterly impractical it would be in actual real-life combat. Especially “hunter” class armor that has all sorts of spikes and horns. Okay, this guy’s supposed to be sneaking through the underbrush in this stuff? Not to mention plate-wearing classes with helms that look like they must weigh 50 pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/27 "2013-08-30T03:43:38Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > As a student of medieval history and an avid player of World of Warcraft, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at armor in WoW and boggled at how utterly impractical it would be in actual real-life combat. A corollary of that is the sword carried in a scabbard on the back. A seemingly omnipresent trope in just about every fantasy series and game, yet it next to never happened in real life. About the only contemporary depiction I have ever seen is a woodcut ( I think ) of some Swiss or German troops with monstrous zweihanders strapped to their back for transportation, but not exactly sheathed at the ready ( I don’t think they even had a sheath - swords like that were virtually polearms ). Basically it was utterly impractical and nobody ever did it. But it looks cool in video games :D. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/28 "2013-08-30T04:07:57Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Us SCA folk have plenty of crests and such decorative protrusions on helmets and we get hit in the head, hard, ALOT. No epidemic of broken necks. You’re not trying to kill each other, you’re not being anywhere near as nasty as if you were. Those protrusions mean that someone can aim for the “horns” in several ways that would be worse news for the wearer than a regular hit: whip 'em, grab from behind, stick blunt object in between and move it to the side… if they’re relatively small and linear (as in the Japanese helmets) then it’s not really a good target, but branched stag horns? That’s asking for someone to use your helmet as a pisspot. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/29 "2013-08-30T06:43:56Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > A corollary of that is the sword carried in a scabbard on the back. A seemingly omnipresent trope in just about every fantasy series and game, yet it next to never happened in real life. About the only contemporary depiction I have ever seen is a woodcut ( I think ) of some Swiss or German troops with monstrous zweihanders strapped to their back for transportation, but not exactly sheathed at the ready ( I don’t think they even had a sheath - swords like that were virtually polearms ). Basically it was utterly impractical and nobody ever did it. > > But it looks cool in video games :D. From my own research, a lot of those zweihanders weren’t even intended for personal combat - their whole purpose was to lop off the business ends of spears/lances. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947/30 "2013-08-30T10:44:47Z")
Firstly, no, as has been said, generally in period crests of that sort were a tournament and parade thing, not a warfare thing. Teutonics did wear them, though, so they are more-or-less right for the villains of the piece (only, not in that situation). But really, [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alexander_nevskiy_ice_battle3.jpg) is likely a more accurate representation (note the very Steppe-influenced pointed helmets on the Russians) even though created centuries later. Having said that, [Cennini](http://www.noteaccess.com/Texts/Cennini/10M.htm) gives pretty detailed instructions for making tourney crests of leather and gesso. They would not have been too heavy, and likely pretty tear-away. Nobody was going to get their neck broken by wearing a crest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-these-great-crusader-helmets-from-_alexander-nevsky_-remotely-possible/656947.md?page=1)