# Were US wars in Korea and Vietnam almost genocidal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643 "2014-03-02T00:41:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/41 "2014-03-04T01:50:52Z")
Even by the standards of US Armed Forces 2014, the North Korean death toll from US bombing would be unbelievable. Many serious historians in US academia consider these wars genocidal, but they are very leftist. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/42 "2014-03-04T02:02:49Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Even by the standards of US Armed Forces 2014, the North Korean death toll from US bombing would be unbelievable. Many serious historians in US academia consider these wars genocidal, but they are very leftist. By the standards of the 1950’s, which is when it happened, it was light. 1.2 million combined dead is nothing to sneeze at, but it pales in comparison to the wholesale slaughter less than a decade before. Many serious historians in US academia are fools. If you can give examples of the ones who present Korea as a genocidal war, then we can examine their argument. We’ll probably point and laugh at them afterward, but when they’re anonymous, we can’t even do that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/43 "2014-03-04T02:11:24Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Even by the standards of US Armed Forces 2014, the North Korean death toll from US bombing would be unbelievable. Many serious historians in US academia consider these wars genocidal, but they are very leftist. If a historian thinks the bombings of North Korean in the Korean War are “genocide” I find it difficult to see them as serious historians anymore than historians who think the expulsion of the German ethnic populations from places like the Sudetenland, Silesia, East Prussia etc. was genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/44 "2014-03-04T17:10:52Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Many serious historians in US academia consider these wars genocidal, but they are very leftist. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/45 "2014-03-07T15:38:03Z")
The “genocide” claim apparently stems from a misunderstanding of the word, or from hyperbole. The nice people who sell me chips at lunchtime are Korean but the government hasn’t tried to kill them. That said, I can provide one of the looked-for cites – but the OP is an _underestimate_. Pulitzer-prize-winning historian Richard Rhodes estimates that the US Air Force killed **2 million** civilians in North Korea by strategic bombing. That’s _in addition to_ about 1.5-2 million military casualties NK suffered in battle. [Citation (second paragraph)](http://books.google.com/books?id=f113iCcn87wC&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=richard+rhodes+dark+sun+the+making+of+the+hydrogen+bomb+korean+war+strategic+bombing+casualties+2+million&source=bl&ots=Xeljn4Fu3z&sig=ikcXaWzBf0mNWErrC_p2SbfH5OI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rtJdUZ6nAbHl4AP6_4CoBQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/46 "2014-03-07T19:09:25Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Oh, I wasn’t making fun of Mr. Villa. He was brilliant. I was trying to make a joke that we needed him to raid the southern U.S. for some reason, I don’t know. > > Hey! Quit it! You’re helping me make this thread more of a blob! > > Ehh, it’s really too late. My cat’s breath smells like cat food, too. > > And if you really want to find the U.S. committing genocide, the Indian wars in Texas qualify, certainly. However, as I am descended from both sides of that conflict, I must admit that the actions of some groups of Indians made it easy to perpetuate the war on them, however wrong it was. > > And so it goes. Well, the Comanches _were_ hard to like… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/47 "2014-03-07T20:23:38Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Even by the standards of US Armed Forces 2014, the North Korean death toll from US bombing would be unbelievable. Many serious historians in US academia consider these wars genocidal, but they are very leftist. Who started the Korean War again? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/48 "2014-03-07T21:44:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > The “genocide” claim apparently stems from a misunderstanding of the word, or from hyperbole. The nice people who sell me chips at lunchtime are Korean but the government hasn’t tried to kill them. > > That said, I can provide one of the looked-for cites – but the OP is an _underestimate_. Pulitzer-prize-winning historian Richard Rhodes estimates that the US Air Force killed **2 million** civilians in North Korea by strategic bombing. That’s _in addition to_ about 1.5-2 million military casualties NK suffered in battle. “Estimates.” I’m not in a position to wade through everything. Does he have any cites for that figure or did he just pull it out of his ass? I doubt the NK government can be relied on for accurate figures. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/49 "2014-03-07T22:21:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Who started the Korean War again? The DPRK says the USA started it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/50 "2014-03-08T11:36:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > That said, I can provide one of the looked-for cites – but the OP is an _underestimate_. Pulitzer-prize-winning historian Richard Rhodes estimates that the US Air Force killed **2 million** civilians in North Korea by strategic bombing. That’s _in addition to_ about 1.5-2 million military casualties NK suffered in battle. > > [Citation (second paragraph)](http://books.google.com/books?id=f113iCcn87wC&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=richard+rhodes+dark+sun+the+making+of+the+hydrogen+bomb+korean+war+strategic+bombing+casualties+2+million&source=bl&ots=Xeljn4Fu3z&sig=ikcXaWzBf0mNWErrC_p2SbfH5OI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rtJdUZ6nAbHl4AP6_4CoBQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false) Two things: this isn’t actually what he says, though his awkward wording makes it easy to infer its what he’s saying. He doesn’t say two million North Korean civilians were killed by the USAF, he says two million civilians were killed, but his immediate comparison of the number as “almost as many as fire- and atomic-bombing killed in Japan during the Second World War” leaves the implication that these were deaths from aerial bombing but doesn’t actually say it. Two is that I’m highly skeptical of the number, but perfectly willing to be convinced. Unfortunately, the page with footnotes for page 444 which might give some insight as to where he gets this number from isn’t available for preview. More common estimates of North Korean civilian deaths [are](http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Ko): > [@](#): > > ■NoKo Civilian > ■406,000 killed + 680,000 missing (Nahm93) > ■Up to 1,000,000 (Wallechinsky; Clodfelter) > ■1,185,000 (Rummel) > ■[MEDIAN: 1,000,000] > > ■NoKo Military + Civilian > ■500,000 (Britannica) > ■700,000 (Dictionary of 20C World History) > ■926,000 (Compton’s) > ■1,316,579 (Wallechinsky; Clodfelter) > ■1,380,151 (Nahm93) > ■1,535,000 (Rummel) > ■[MEDIAN: 1,316,579] If one were to add in Rummel and others estimates of democide by the [North Korean government](http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#North): > [@](#): > > ◦Rummel estimates that the Communist regime of North Korea committed 1,663,000 democides between 1948 and 1987 > ■North Korean victims: 1,293,000 > ■South Korean victims: 363,000 > > ◦Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 2,000,000 (p.4) > ■In Party purges: 100,000 (p.564) > ■In concentration camps: 1.5M The figure of 2 million become more plausible. In any event, Richard Rhodes certainly didn’t consider the war genocidal, so I’ll have to stick with response to > [@CCitizen](#): > > Many serious historians in US academia consider these wars genocidal, but they are very leftist. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/51 "2014-03-08T15:24:47Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Name one. Kim Jong Un. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/52 "2014-03-08T16:44:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Kim Jong Un. I didn’t realize he was a historian in US academia. Universities have got to do some better vetting. And the CIA really needs to keep better tabs on the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/53 "2014-03-08T21:40:21Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I didn’t realize he was a historian in US academia. > > Universities have got to do some better vetting. The other poster probably wasn’t asserting that Little Fatty (as the local populace here refers to him) is an academic in the US but rather is famously an academic who specializes in the study of the US. Given his country’s rather boring portrayal of Daddy Fatty and Grandpa Fatty as the penultimate and ultimate authorities and practitioners of any and all fields of endeavor, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s been anointed an expert on the US. > [@](#): > > And the CIA really needs to keep better tabs on the guy. Hopefully, someone in his country will decide that the most patriotic thing to do is to get rid of the guy and then the universities everywhere won’t have to worry about vetting him! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/54 "2014-03-08T22:44:32Z")
Wait a second - I thought the OP believes that the US doesn’t exist. Therefore it cannot have committed almost genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/55 "2014-03-08T23:51:16Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Wait a second - I thought the OP believes that the US doesn’t exist. Therefore it cannot have committed almost genocide. Almost genocide committed by a nation that doesn’t exist is the ultimate Koan. I don’t think you are supposed to answer it, you are just supposed to ponder it for years on end until you either get enlightened or committed indefinitely. That is the only thing I got out of the various related threads that the OP started. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643/56 "2014-03-09T00:03:37Z")
In his defense, the OP is fascinating in his thought process. He was raised in Russia according to his posts yet he he not Russian. He lives in the U.S. now even though it isn’t a real nation. He isn’t American and never will be - he is Jewish which is a religion rather than a country or nation. What would somebody like that need to do to make everything right in their world-view? I guess you could move to Israel but there are more Jews in the U.S. than Israel and the U.S. is very accepting of Jews. An individual Russian-Jew-American is basically screwed if they don’t like any of those options. Can’t you help a guy out by rewriting world history to conform to his established beliefs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-us-wars-in-korea-and-vietnam-almost-genocidal/682643.md?page=2)