# Were Walter Reed's troubles caused by outsourcing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733 "2007-03-05T22:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/1 "2007-03-05T22:17:43Z")
Story [here:](http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/03/waxman_to_force.html) > [@](#): > > In the letter, Waxman charged that the Army used an unusual process to award a five-year, $120 million contract to manage the center to a company owned by a former executive of Halliburton, the scandal-prone government contractor once operated by Vice President Dick Cheney. > > In 2004, the Army determined that Walter Reed’s federal employees could operate the medical center more efficiently than IAP Worldwide Services, which is operated by the former Halliburton executive, Al Neffgen, Waxman wrote. After IAP protested, the Army “unilaterally” increased the employees’ estimated costs by $7 million, making IAP appear cheaper, Waxman said. Rules barred Walter Reed employees from appealing the decision, Waxman wrote, and in January 2006 the Army gave the contract to IAP. > > According to an internal memo written by a senior Walter Reed administrator and obtained by Waxman, the decision to outsource to IAP led the center’s skilled personnel to leave Walter Reed “in droves,” fearing they would be laid off when the contractor took over. In the last year, Waxman found, over 250 of 300 government employees left the center. The lack of staffing put patient care “at risk of mission failure,” warned an internal Army memo obtained by the congressman. > > Some of the problems recently revealed at Walter Reed “may be attributable to a lack of skilled government technicians on staff,” Waxman wrote in the letter. Well, despite the Pentagon’s effort to block him from testifying, the fired head of Walter Reed, Maj. Gen. George Weightman, [is testifying before Congress this week.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030500676.html) The story touches only briefly on the outsourcing issue. Is the Halliburton connection significant or not? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/2 "2007-03-06T00:41:05Z")
Who knows at this point? The Washington _Post_ exposé didn’t stress outsourcing as a problem. It appears right now to be more complacency, indolence and things along that line. For example, on _Hardball_ today a Republican member of the House Armed Services Committee said that his committee held hearings and sent staff members to Walter Reed last year, or the year before. Nothing came of the hearings so it would seem that the Committee merely accepted the word, that everything was Hunky Dory, of the high officials testifying before it and the staff members were shown a bunch of Potemkin Villages and looked no further. Everyone running the place and conducting oversight on the operation of the outpatient care seemed to be just going through the motions, reading reposts and otherwise paper shuffling. ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/3 "2007-03-06T00:45:27Z")
Well of course. Conressmen don’t give a shit about these brave men and women. They aren’t a huge voting block and they don’t have any money. Why should they? Until the press exposes the situation and they swing into the, “I’m shocked, shocked to find this going on” mode. Stupid, greedy, evil white men. What are you gonna’ do? I mean, besides vote back into office year after year. ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/4 "2007-03-06T07:12:14Z")
I am completely uninformed about this situation, but my WAG is: 1. Lack of funding. I cannot even begin to imagine how much it must cost to treat a soldier with severe brain injury and/or multiple limb loss. 2. A gross underestimate of the number of casualties by the administration. 3. Miraculous medical advancements that keep our soldiers alive in situations where they would be dead in any war prior to and including Vietnam. 4. Politically motivated denial of the problem by the administration and congress. I mean, this is really bad press. I will be the first to assume that one of Cheney’s cronies has stolen millions of dollars from government contracts. But the contract is for $120 million dollars for 5 years. That’s $24 million a year, which ain’t a lot of money considering the enormity of this clusterfuck. I would guess that many of these soldiers have medical bills well in excess of $1 million. This funding is probably only for administrative costs, but I suspect these costs are always a very large percentage of the total expense. I hate to be cynical, but how long will it be until we see the first homeless handicapped Operation Iraqi Freedom vet on the street? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/5 "2007-03-06T11:04:26Z")
Little over six months ago, according to my recollection. Oh, yes, two of the facilities I do tech support for are substance treatment for veteran programs. Yeah. They’ve gotten bigger recently. We’re expecting a long-term boom. Damn it. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/6 "2007-03-06T12:18:38Z")
This comes down to money, pure and simple. DoD’s medical program cost over $100B (that right billion) a year right now to operate. So as you can imagine, there is tremendous pressure to keep costs down. Contractors and civilians in place of military in these hospitals is the latest cost savings measure. And frankly, medical care for the military has always been cheap (to the individual military member) but has always been sub-par. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/7 "2007-03-06T12:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] This comes down to money, pure and simple. DoD’s medical program cost over $100B (that right billion) a year right now to operate. So as you can imagine, there is tremendous pressure to keep costs down. Contractors and civilians in place of military in these hospitals is the latest cost savings measure. And frankly, medical care for the military has always been cheap (to the individual military member) but has always been sub-par. [/QUOTE] I should add that this $100B covers active military _and_ retirees ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/8 "2007-03-06T13:10:53Z")
I could be wrong, but as I understood it, the problems were pretty much there and the outsourcing was an attempt to clean things up. Then when they announced the site would be closing in a few years, people started bailing. At least, that’s what I think I heard on Anderson Cooper’s show this morning (I was only half watching…the coffee hadn’t kicked in yet). ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/9 "2007-03-06T13:26:22Z")
The problem with outsourcing is that you get ‘compliance levels’ eg: _What do you mean about rats? It says nothing about rats in the contract._ The problem with in-sourcing is that it is invariably more expensive, unless one factors in the ability to kick arse when things look shoddy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/10 "2007-03-06T14:01:14Z")
Walter Reed is a very old facility, and if my experiences with military bases are anything to go by, the physical plant problems there are likely long standing ones. That seems to be the case from reading the Post stories - problems like mold, rodents, bad plumbing, and insect infestation are chronic ones. They didn’t crop up overnight at Walter Reed. It is likely that they were mitigated for years by just keeping soldiers out of the worst parts of the place, and deferring maintenance on some parts of the buildings. When the war came, this couldn’t be done anymore. I don’t think outsourcing is an issue at all for the worst parts of this story. How would outsourcing help or hurt a mold infestation or bad plumbing? Either these things get fixed, or they don’t, and the management of who isn’t doing the repairs isn’t the worst part of this crime. At the root of all of this is a defense budget that has been underfunded and under BRAC constraints since the early 1990’s, under Democrats and Republicans alike, and hasn’t spent nearly enough money to fund things like this. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/11 "2007-03-06T14:13:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Walter Reed is a very old facility, and if my experiences with military bases are anything to go by, the physical plant problems there are likely long standing ones. That seems to be the case from reading the Post stories - problems like mold, rodents, bad plumbing, and insect infestation are chronic ones. They didn’t crop up overnight at Walter Reed. It is likely that they were mitigated for years by just keeping soldiers out of the worst parts of the place, and deferring maintenance on some parts of the buildings. When the war came, this couldn’t be done anymore. I don’t think outsourcing is an issue at all for the worst parts of this story. How would outsourcing help or hurt a mold infestation or bad plumbing? Either these things get fixed, or they don’t, and the management of who isn’t doing the repairs isn’t the worst part of this crime. At the root of all of this is a defense budget that has been underfunded and under BRAC constraints since the early 1990’s, under Democrats and Republicans alike, and hasn’t spent nearly enough money to fund things like this. [/QUOTE] Remind yourself not to get into building maintenance. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/12 "2007-03-06T14:20:44Z")
This blogger thinks so: > [@](#): > > Now we’re getting to the real story behind the scandal at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. The Cheney Administration privatized support services there by giving a $120 million contract to IAP Worldwide Services, a company headed by a former Halliburton official, Al Neffgen. Neffgen was in charge of KBR, the Halliburton subsidiary, when they were charged with overcharging the government for fuel in Iraq. > > IAP World Services replaced 300 federal employees at Walter Reed (Pdf link) with – get this – 50 workers. So Dick Cheney’s pal makes millions and our wounded soldiers lie in their own urine. Also on the board of IAP Worldwide is Dan Quayle. Former Treasury Secretary John Snow is chair of the New York hedge fund that owns IAP Worldwide. The President of IAP Worldwide is named Dave Swindle. I kid you not. IAP also charged the US $200 million for ice after Hurricane Katrina. Cheney’s pals make millions and our soldiers lie in their own urine. The story of the Bush Administration in one demonstrative anecdote. [http://mainstusa.blogspot.com/2007/03/walter-reed-has-privatization-problem.html](http://mainstusa.blogspot.com/2007/03/walter-reed-has-privatization-problem.html) Links are provided. The blogger is an admitted “congenital Democrat.” Surely, our conservative brethren can show Privatization’s Good Side. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/13 "2007-03-06T15:00:16Z")
Lack of money and an increase in casualties to care for should result in Army medical high-ups going up the chain of command for more money. There isn’t any evidence they did that. Nor is there any evidence that those higher-ups, like the Chief of Staff, Secretary of The Army, or SecDef went to Congress over additional funding. On the contrary, the evidence seems to be that the Army medical command knew about physical plant and bureaucratic hang-ups and did nothing and Congressional oversight was slapdash. Higher that expected casualties might have a surprise in 2003-4, but in the last three years? Hardly. And how can a lack of planning last for three years? I don’t see any of the reasons given as being justification of the lack of action by the Army medical commanders and their bosses. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/14 "2007-03-06T17:41:52Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Lack of money and an increase in casualties to care for should result in Army medical high-ups going up the chain of command for more money. There isn’t any evidence they did that. Nor is there any evidence that those higher-ups, like the Chief of Staff, Secretary of The Army, or SecDef went to Congress over additional funding. On the contrary, the evidence seems to be that the Army medical command knew about physical plant and bureaucratic hang-ups and did nothing and Congressional oversight was slapdash. Higher that expected casualties might have a surprise in 2003-4, but in the last three years? Hardly. And how can a lack of planning last for three years? I don’t see any of the reasons given as being justification of the lack of action by the Army medical commanders and their bosses. [/QUOTE] On the contrary, DoD had gone to Congress repeatedly and asked for more funding, but have been told no. They did last year, and they have this year. Part of the problem is that DoD is asking retirees to pay more for health care, and Congress is reluctant to increase their premiums, which are ridiculously low. So DoD is looking for funding to pay they current bill, before they try and repair facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/15 "2007-03-06T17:46:04Z")
I think several of the reasons cited in this thread contributed. However, any one of the people now complaining – Senators, Representatives, the Administration, Army brass, Congressional staffers, media heads, editors, Republicans, Democrats, and Joseph Lieberman, whatever he is – could have gotten into their vehicles and, **if they weren’t too weighed down by a thick encrustation of “Support Our Troops” bumper stickers** , driven down to Walter Reed and/or any other facility and talked to the relatives of the people there and learned the truth in a single afternoon. The neglect is a national shame – the _outrage_ is a national embarrassment. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/16 "2007-03-06T18:06:56Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] And frankly, medical care for the military has always been cheap (to the individual military member) but has always been sub-par. [/QUOTE] You’re wrong, at least about the sub-par part. According to [what I’ve read](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html), the VA, at least until recently, provided the best (and most cost-effective) health care in the country. > [@](#): > > …Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals. I don’t know what’s happened in the past two years, but I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that the Leader may have had something to do with fucking it up. Read that whole article. It’s manages to be both encouraging and discouraging at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/17 "2007-03-06T18:17:57Z")
[QUOTE=black rabbit] You’re wrong, at least about the sub-par part. According to [what I’ve read](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html), the VA, at least until recently, provided the best (and most cost-effective) health care in the country. I don’t know what’s happened in the past two years, but I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that the Leader may have had something to do with fucking it up. Read that whole article. It’s manages to be both encouraging and discouraging at the same time. [/QUOTE] I haven’t been insde a VA hospital is quite a while. I was refering to Medical Treatment Facilities (MTFs) that operate for active duty military. I certainly wasn’t all that clear. And while I’m not a Bush fan myself, I think we hold the President, any of them, way to accountable for actions that take place at levels far removed from his direct control. The problem is money pure and simple. And with the debt and deficits, and the cost of the war, there just wasn’t a lot of cash left over for a hospital that was due to close soon anyway. Sad, but true. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/18 "2007-03-06T18:18:58Z")
The CheneyBush administration has been completely unconcerned with the health problems of civilian citizens. They care even less for the health of military people; why, they’re just cannon fodder. It would have been much simpler if the seriously wounded had died instead of hanging around as an embarrassing reminder of the CheneyBushHalliburton war. Tombstones are so much cheaper than brain-damaged amputees, and they never gripe about their care. :rolleyes: Stupid medical science! Doh! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/19 "2007-03-06T18:20:37Z")
There’s a difference between medical care for the military, which is funded by DoD money and provided at places like Walter Reed, and medical care for veterans, which is funded by VA money and provided at VA hospitals. In fact, the poor grunts involved here generally are better off once they are discharged and can then access the VA facilities. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733/20 "2007-03-06T18:30:33Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] I haven’t been insde a VA hospital is quite a while. I was refering to Medical Treatment Facilities (MTFs) that operate for active duty military. I certainly wasn’t all that clear. [/QUOTE] My bad. I think I got thrown by the “…_and retired_” bit in your subsequent post, and just assumed you were talking about the VA. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/were-walter-reeds-troubles-caused-by-outsourcing/394733.md?page=2)