# Werewolf a game Part 2 (this time with MAFIA!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565 "2007-03-26T16:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 168
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3341 "2007-04-30T01:45:29Z")
hey, sorry I haven’t been around much this game day. the past week has been a little crazy. that said, we haven’t hit the magicc countdown number yet, Aguecheeck is in the lead vote wise (i am posting from my phone so I don’t have an exact count, but I believe it is 7 votes.) and cowgirl and howcow need to make some posts in the next few hours. I don’t know if I could even find a replacement this close to the end of the game, so I am not sure what I am going to do if they don’t make their posts. I will think on it and get back to y’all. I will make a proper post in 2 hours or so when I get home ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3342 "2007-04-30T02:40:16Z")
[QUOTE=brewha] I gotta say I’m a bit conflicted. I put Aguecheek pretty near the top of my list as scum. I really don’t believe his role claim. Since he has voted for Queuing, presumably they are on different sides. So, unless one of them is the SK, one of my suspicions are wrong. [/QUOTE] I think, of **brewha** , **Queuing** , and **Ague** , one is scum, one is town, and one is the SK. I think **Ague** is scum, because of the absurdness of his role claim. The fact that **Queuing** talks to much to be the SK keeps being brought up. But perhaps **Queuing** knows that that we would assume the SK wouldn’t talk to much. Double think is a bitch. However, there have been some pretty darn good arguments presented showing specific reasons that **brewha** might be the SK. If **Ague** ’s not the cop, I don’t see any reason the Mafia won’t take him out tonight. If he were town, he most likely wouldn’t falsely claim cop. Even if we don’t fully trust his claim, assuming for a momment he actually is the cop, he’s still getting information for the town. I say we give him another night. If he lives through the night, we’ll get some more info from him. The mob won’t let him live forever, because as the town gets smaller, a cops info becomes more relavent. In summary, they have every reason to kill him soon; if he is scum and doesn’t die soon, we’ve already identified him for a lynch in the very near future. For that reason, and the reason in my second paragraph, my vote for **Queuing** stands. Tomorrow, I will most likely target **brewha** , and **Ague** if he’s still alive the next day. Finally, I am still suspicious of **cowgirl** for reasons I’ve presented earlier. Her lack of participation today only fuels that suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3343 "2007-04-30T03:01:25Z")
[QUOTE=Kat] Who’s your preferred candidate for lynching? You earlier listed **brewha** as your pick for SK, but who’s your top choice for Mafia right now? [/QUOTE] I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but I agree yet again with storyteller. I also would much rather get one of the lurkers then the potential cop, or me of course. So my answer to this question is **hocow, fretful porpentine or pygmy rugger.** The first 2 because of the lack of recent posting mostly. The case against them has also been laid it previously, and while it wasn’t necessarily convincing then I am finding it more so in light of their recent (in)actions. The 3rd because storyteller said he was scum and kept voting for him (reminiscent of his FCOD call). I won’t unvote aguecheek yet, mostly because we need to get scum today. I know I am not scum, and therefore I will not unvote someone who I don’t know is town when it will cause someone I know is town (namely me) to die. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3344 "2007-04-30T03:24:25Z")
[QUOTE=Queuing] I won’t unvote aguecheek yet, mostly because we need to get scum today. I know I am not scum, and therefore I will not unvote someone who I don’t know is town when it will cause someone I know is town (namely me) to die. [/QUOTE] Isn’t this the same type of reasoning you called Brewha out for? If it was scummy for brewha, isn’t it scummy for you? ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3345 "2007-04-30T03:30:21Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Isn’t this the same type of reasoning you called Brewha out for? If it was scummy for brewha, isn’t it scummy for you? [/QUOTE] Well that is up for you to decide. I called brewha out for switching his vote to someone who he said he didn’t necessarily think was scum, but was doing so to save his skin. Personally I do not believe aguecheek’s claim, and I happen to think he is scum, therefore I don’t mind leaving my vote on him. I would prefer to vote for someone else. I stated this. I won’t try unvote aguecheek and kill a known townie. So no, I don’t think I am doing the samething brewha was doing. If you want to go ahead, vote for me. To be honest I am getting very close to not caring. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3346 "2007-04-30T04:21:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally I do not believe aguecheek’s claim, and I happen to think he is scum, therefore I don’t mind leaving my vote on him. Well, you say this now, but a couple of days ago, you were saying: > [@](#): > > I voted for you to save our cop. and > [@](#): > > Do you mean because I tried to not get aguecheek killed? What exactly was it that made you change your mind about believing role claims in general and **Aguecheek** ’s in particular? And this is now officially weirding me out, because _I am voting for **Aguecheek** myself!_ but the sudden jump from calling **Aguecheek** “our cop” to voting for **Aguecheek** right when he’s tied with **Queuing** for votes and \*not[/n] believing **Aguecheek** ’s (with a side trip into “lynch the lurkers” land) just rings badly to me. The timing just strikes me as awfully convenient for him to suddenly reverse his strategy like that. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3347 "2007-04-30T04:22:27Z")
That should be “and _not_ believing Aguecheek’s role claim (with a side trip into “lynch the lurkers” land)” Damn the no-edit rule! ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3348 "2007-04-30T04:49:08Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Isn’t this the same type of reasoning you called Brewha out for? If it was scummy for brewha, isn’t it scummy for you? [/QUOTE] That was my very first thought after I read his statement, also. “Do as I say, not as I do.” ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3349 "2007-04-30T05:13:45Z")
I think I’m misreading this: [QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] … If **Ague** ’s not the cop, I don’t see any reason the Mafia won’t take him out tonight. If he were town, he most likely wouldn’t falsely claim cop. … [/QUOTE] I’m reading that as, “If **Ague** ’s vanilla townie the Mafia will probably kill him tonight. But if he were vanilla townie he wouldn’t have false-claimed cop and is therefore Mafia.” Can you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3350 "2007-04-30T05:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=MonkeyMensch] I think I’m misreading this: I’m reading that as, “If **Ague** ’s vanilla townie the Mafia will probably kill him tonight. But if he were vanilla townie he wouldn’t have false-claimed cop and is therefore Mafia.” Can you clarify? [/QUOTE] Yes, **MM** , you’re pretty much spot on. If he’s not Mafia, I can’t comprehend any scenario where he lives through the night. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3351 "2007-04-30T06:13:50Z")
[QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] Yes, **MM** , you’re pretty much spot on. If he’s not Mafia, I can’t comprehend any scenario where he lives through the night. [/QUOTE] How about the mafia trying to go after the SK, while getting the town to lynch him? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3352 "2007-04-30T12:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=Kat] Who’s your preferred candidate for lynching? You earlier listed **brewha** as your pick for SK, but who’s your top choice for Mafia right now? [/QUOTE] Well, I’d _like_ to go after **Pygmy Rugger,** because I still think he’s most likely to be Mafia of all the candidates we have right now. Witness his quick leap into the **brewha** vs. **Queuing** donnybrook earlier today. As I’ve said in the past, I think encouraging this sort of one-on-one battle, even voting for one of the participants, is either woefully misguided or scummy. But I’ve brought his name up three days running, and no one seems to agree with me on this one, so I think I’m going to need to drop it, at least for now. I’d vote for **brewha,** but in this case my theory that he is the SK clashes against my resolution to avoid voting for anyone who gets in a big public feud (although of course, that can now be used against me if scum start picking fights with townies to _escape_ suspicion, so I reserve the right to change this approach at any time). At all events, I’m not totally sure it is to our benefit to kill the SK yet. This sounds counterintuitive, but here’s my thought process: the Mafia doesn’t want the SK to win any more than we do. They will be trying to kill him/her as we get closer to endgame. If the Mafia is shooting for the SK, then they are _not_ targeting known townies, which improves our chances overall in the endgame. Hell, sooner or later the Mafia may have to sacrifice one of their own on purpose, as **Rysto** suggested, if the numbers get close and they are worried about an SK win. Once we catch one or two more Mafia, then the SK becomes a more urgent issue for us, but for the moment we’re better off identifying the crooked-nose types than the lunatic basement-dweller. So I’d rather vote for **Pygmy Rugger**. I’d rather start examining some of the people who we haven’t examined much at all, instead of the usual suspects all the time. But there are only a few hours left until the deadline, and neither a vote for **PR** nor a vote for someone off the radar is going to be productive. That said, I’m going to vote Aguecheekfor now, unless I see real movement toward something I like better. If he is scum, great! If not, at least it will remove the need to _talk_ about him every damn day, and allow us to have more productive conversations that focus on a greater variety of potential targets. ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3353 "2007-04-30T13:10:18Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] Well, I’d _like_ to go after **Pygmy Rugger,** because I still think he’s most likely to be Mafia of all the candidates we have right now. Witness his quick leap into the **brewha** vs. **Queuing** donnybrook earlier today. As I’ve said in the past, I think encouraging this sort of one-on-one battle, even voting for one of the participants, is either woefully misguided or scummy. But I’ve brought his name up three days running, and no one seems to agree with me on this one, so I think I’m going to need to drop it, at least for now. [/QUOTE] For whatever it might be worth I too would be more then willing to vote for someone beside aguecheek. I just don’t know who the most likely person that would be. FTR, I never said that I believed aguecheek. Just like I never said that I believed chrisk. I still would rather him not die, but I can’t vote for myself can I? If you think I am scum go ahead, vote for me, put me out of my misery. I am getting weary always defending myself, and if I make it through and if yet again someone tries to get the lynch me bandwagon going I am very tempted to just let it happen. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3354 "2007-04-30T13:25:44Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] If he is scum, great! If not, at least it will remove the need to _talk_ about him every damn day, and allow us to have more productive conversations that focus on a greater variety of potential targets. [/QUOTE] Both you and Queuing need to be more careful about how you word things. It has already been discussed how Queuing’s statement about saving his own neck closely paralleled my own. But, now there’s this statement. I got jumped on for suggesting we lynch Queuing because if he is town, he seems to be leading us in the wrong direction. I said the town would be better off without him. Isn’t this pretty much what you are saying? I don’t know for sure if Aguecheek is town or not, but we are coming down to the wire here. If we make two more mistakes, we lose. I think it’s a safe bet that there is 4 or 5 mafia left. I’m pretty sure Queuing, Lakai, and Pygmy Rugger are three of them. It wouldn’t surprise me if Aguecheek were one or if one of the less vocal participants were one as well. Lurking seems to be a pretty good strategy. I was not suspected at all until I started posting more. I’m going to look into those with fewer posts. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3355 "2007-04-30T13:31:03Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] One other thing before dishes, though… > [@brewha](#): > > Originally Posted by brewha > Folks, I say we take out Queuing today. He appears to be taking the role as the town leader since Blaster Master’s demise. And he has been wrong. Either maliciously or mistakenly, he has been wrong. We’ve done nothing but lynch town folk and we’ve done so following his lead. > > Regardless of his affiliation, the town would be better off without him. > > Vote Queuing Does this sentence make any sense to anyone unless my theory is right and **brewha** is the SK? At this stage of the game, lynching a townie just because he’s made incorrect guesses would not be good for the town _at all._ We’re getting down to the nitty gritty here - we can’t afford to keep killing townspeople "regardless of [their] affiliation. It sounds, again, like all **brewha** cares about is keeping himself alive and getting rid of anyone who points suspicion, no matter how lightly, toward **brewha**. [/QUOTE] Huh, it seems you were the one who called me on it. Queuing attacks me for saving my own neck then does the same. Storyteller attacks me for voting for someone that is either scum or at least bad for the town - then does the same. I think I may have found my final mafia member. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3356 "2007-04-30T13:43:07Z")
Okay, I’m back. I couldn’t access the boards for about 24 hours Friday-Saturday (was it just me?) and I was at an all-day meeting on Sunday. And I haven’t the slightest idea when the deadline is, it hasn’t been posted for the last many pages. can someone please tell me? **Storyteller** makes a good argument about Brewha playing for himself in post [3249](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8506739&postcount=3249). Problem is I keep on agreeing with Brewha: - that it is odd that after all this time, super-helpful **Queueing** is still alive, and his record of pointing out scum isn’t that good. He is either mafia or a bad judge of character (although the same could be said for any one of us!) and > [@](#): > > I don’t know why you guys can’t see what I’m seeing. We’re getting manipulated by a very skilled set of mafia. I tell you what. Lynch Queuing or Lakai. If either one of them turns up town, I walk to the gallows, put the noose round my neck and happily leap off the platform. Because if they’re town, I got no clue what to do next. I have been convinced of Storyteller’s towniness from the very first day because he seems to restate my thoughts better than I ever could. However, I respectfully think he’s wrong about Brewha. Now, some of you have connected me with **Aguecheek** but I really understand why. If you are correct that either Aguecheek or I are scum, I know I am not, then Aguecheek must be. I don’t know anything about Ag, but I do know that I am town. So if my opinion on this is worth anything, I will vote Aguecheek, but I don’t want to do it officially until I know when the deadline is. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3357 "2007-04-30T13:47:58Z")
[QUOTE=Lakai] How about the mafia trying to go after the SK, while getting the town to lynch him? [/QUOTE] Well, it depends on if you think the Mafia would be willing to take the chance of having one of their own exposed by a beat cop tonight. It might be a good gambit, though, because they might want to use the cop to help them find the SK. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3358 "2007-04-30T13:57:25Z")
Random thoughts and a vote count: - The problem is, there are no 100% convincing arguments to be made about anybody; if there were, they would have been made already. - **Sturmhauke** ’s helpful spreadsheet shows that all of us have voted for town and all of us have voted for scum too. - I am as surprised as anyone that I am still alive. - \*\*Queueing \*\*is either playing very well and hiding in plain sight, or playing very well and unwittingly making himself look suspicious. I have seen enough evidence to be convinced either way, and am not smart enough to decide which. Vote count: \*\*Aguecheek \*\*- 7 (_Rysto, Kat, Fretful Porcupine, Monkey Mensch, Queuing, StarvingButStrong, storyteller_) \*\*Queuing \*\*- 4 (_brewha, Aguecheek, Pygmy Rugger, sturmhauke_) \*\*brewha \*\*- 1 (_Lakai_) \*\*hocow \*\* - 1 (_Pleonast_) Deadline is this morning. I don’t want to push Aguecheek over the edge, the only reason I would vote that way is in the hopes that it will demonstrate my innocence. I’m rereading to see if someone else jumps out at me enough to make an argument convincing enough to put someone else over the top, but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3359 "2007-04-30T14:06:46Z")
[QUOTE=brewha] Huh, it seems you were the one who called me on it. Queuing attacks me for saving my own neck then does the same. Storyteller attacks me for voting for someone that is either scum or at least bad for the town - then does the same. I think I may have found my final mafia member. [/QUOTE] Dude, you need to calm down. Not everyone is Mafia. My objection to your behavior, fundamentally, was not so much that you change your vote very frequently “regardless of affiliation.” It is that you appear to be playing - like **Autolycus** - for yourself. Your primary motivation always seems to be to stay alive at any cost: you switch your votes to your nearest competition when you are in danger, you post very defensively, and you frantically FoS anyone with the temerity to look at you funny. I think you’ve been playing a very out-for-yourself kind of game, which I think is consistent with the SK. It could also be consistent with someone playing like **Autolycus,** who was a townie, so I am reserving judgment for the moment. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3360 "2007-04-30T14:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=cowgirl] Okay, I’m back. I couldn’t access the boards for about 24 hours Friday-Saturday (was it just me?) [/QUOTE] No, I had that problem, too. Some kind of vague message about “fixing a problem” and no access. > [@](#): > > I have been convinced of Storyteller’s towniness from the very first day because he seems to restate my thoughts better than I ever could. However, I respectfully think he’s wrong about Brewha. I don’t know what I think about **brewha** anymore. As I said in my next-to-last post, I really thought that he was the SK, but then I can’t really see why the SK would run around drawing attention to himself and basically aligning himself against so many people, as **brewha** has today. I don’t know. > [@](#): > > Now, some of you have connected me with **Aguecheek** but I really understand why. If you are correct that either Aguecheek or I are scum, I know I am not, then Aguecheek must be. I still believe that both, neither, or one of you may be scum. I still do not understand why you didn’t protect **pimaspinner** a few nights ago, which is my chief reason for disbelieving your claim of GA. I know you were just catching up, but I’m assuming NAF would have allowed the Night to last as long as you needed to read the thread and make a choice. It seemed terribly obvious at the time that **pima** was on her way out that Night, and the primary reason I am suspicious of you and your claim is this. It is a nagging, not a powerful, suspicion, but there it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=167) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=169)