# Werewolf a game Part 2 (this time with MAFIA!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565 "2007-03-26T16:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 179
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3561 "2007-05-06T06:55:54Z")
Kat’s post above leads me to believe that Queuing is in fact town. Mafia was pushing way too hard on him. I believe Storyteller is town because he was the only one FOSing FCOD early on and he stuck to his suspicion. He also provides very good analysis. Pleonast is a mason so he is kosher. I am town, so by process of elimination that leaves: brewha Fretful Porpentine Pygmy Rugger StarvingButStrong Kat When I can eliminate one more person from this list, I will make my vote. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3562 "2007-05-06T14:40:40Z")
[QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] Can you kindly point me to where you laid out your suspicions of me? I don’t recall you ever doing so. [/QUOTE] You recall correctly. 🙂 It really comes down to a gut feeling. We’ve been at this game for over a month, we’ve all read the posts and the analysis of posts – basically I found myself generally nodding in agreement when others have posted why they found you suspicious, and not been very convinced by your responses to those posts. But I realize leaving it at that would be terribly frustrating to you – how can you rebut a gut feeling? So looking back over just the past few pages worth, here are some recent bits that make me lean towards you being Mafia: I asked whether the town should be aiming at Mafia or the SK ‘yesterday’ – you responded (3471) in part: > [@](#): > > Well, assuming that we get a bead on the SK and Mafia, I’d say it’d be advantageous to take out the SK. My reasoning being, it looks like the SK has been going after town lately. Also, as has been said before, lynching has accountability whereas night kills do not. If the SK were gone, we’d have control over 1/2 of the deaths, instead of 1/3. Now, it’s possible that a townie could hold this opinion – OTOH, absolutely a Mafia would prefer we target a SK. And with the Mafia getting so close to winning, they were probably nearly frantic about getting rid of the SK. Who would be more likely to express an opinion on this matter? A townie who doesn’t see much difference between killing the SK and a Mafia, or a Mafia to whom it was a vital difference? Not a big point, but it niggles. Another bit: Queuing, post 3484 > [@](#): > > FWIW, I am not buying MM as town. I think Aguecheek may have thrown 1 mafia in his list. There were 3 unknowns that he claimed to have investigated. MM who came up town, Lakai who came up town and me who came up SK/Town. He, along with Brewha, went after me pretty damn hard. I think that at least suggests that I am at the very least not Mafia. He just sort of threw the Lakai investigation out there, and I don’t recall any great leaping to the defense of MM as suggested by Fretful. I will leave my vote as it is, but I would like to see MM hang next. I think he might have been right in the second sentence: why wouldn’t Aguecheek at least try to give a little bit of cover to a Mafia? Even if Aguecheek was still alive when that particular Mafia got killed and revealed, well, beat cops are only 50% right, so ooopsie on that call. We (Okay, I, but I think most would agree) now know that Queuing isn’t Mafia. Monkeymensch for sure wasn’t Mafia. So the only person left that could have been Mafia in that threesome is Lakai. Why I’m pointing that out will become clearer in a moment. (And, yes, Lakai is currently second on my scum list, right below Pygmy.) In post 3496, PygmyRugger was explaining his voting record in response to Storyteller’s analysis in 3494 (I think, though he didn’t explicitly say so.) Anyway, Storyteller had pointed out two places where Pygmy Rugger’s actions could be in response to guidance from Lakai. This is what PygmyRugger had to say: > [@](#): > > Concerning cowgirl, I pointed the FoS but didn’t vote because I wanted to see what others thought, first. I have rather trusted Lakai for most of the game, so when he voted where I planned on voting, I went ahead and placed my vote. The thing is, Lakai has been mentioned as distrusted many times by others – even in the face of a ‘Town’ report by Pimaspinner. It looks to me like a general sentiment of “don’t believe he’s town, but we’ll let him live while we go after other targets.” So why do YOU find him trustworthy? And, FretfulPorpentine has just reminded us that Pimaspinner’s read on Lakai as “town” could also be because he’s the Godfather, which I had mostly forgotten about. Is it out of reason that an ‘ordinary’ Mafia, especially a player new to the game, might tend to look to the Godfather for clues on what to do? Now, I’ll be the first to admit none of these points are damning by themselves, but added to the suspicions voiced by others, they make me happy to leave my vote on you. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3563 "2007-05-06T14:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I think he might have been right in the second sentence: why wouldn’t Aguecheek at least try to give a little bit of cover to a Mafia? Even if Aguecheek was still alive when that particular Mafia got killed and revealed, well, beat cops are only 50% right, so ooopsie on that call. > > We (Okay, I, but I think most would agree) now know that Queuing isn’t Mafia. Monkeymensch for sure wasn’t Mafia. So the only person left that could have been Mafia in that threesome is Lakai. Why I’m pointing that out will become clearer in a moment. (And, yes, Lakai is currently second on my scum list, right below Pygmy.) Except, actually, Queuing is confused here. **Aguecheek** never claimed to have investigated **Lakai** ; **pimaspinner** did. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3564 "2007-05-06T15:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=Fretful Porpentine] Except, actually, Queuing is confused here. **Aguecheek** never claimed to have investigated **Lakai** ; **pimaspinner** did. [/QUOTE] Really? Whoops. Okay, scratch that part of my post. Anyway, the larger point stands: I find Lakai suspicious, and others have also posted that they find him suspicious. So why does Pygmy feel he’s trustworthy, to the point of following his lead? ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3565 "2007-05-06T16:07:09Z")
[QUOTE=Fretful Porpentine] I still don’t think **Queuing** can be scum, because I can’t think of a good reason why **Aguecheek** would try to push the idea that one of his fellow Mafia members was the Serial Killer. I think it might be time to take another look at **Lakai** , though, whom I pretty much ignored last time around because of **pimaspinner** ’s report – but she could be wrong, or he could even be the Godfather. Not a definite FoS, but I want to take a look at his posts and see what he’s said. [/QUOTE] Did you have a chance to look over **Lakai** ’s posts yet, and what did you find? ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3566 "2007-05-06T16:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=Kat] Did you have a chance to look over **Lakai** ’s posts yet, and what did you find? [/QUOTE] Yeah, I spent all morning doing that, with not much to show for it. My only conclusion is that if he is Mafia, he’s fiendishly clever and good at covering his tracks. Potentially suspicious stuff: A LOT of votes for townies on his track record, but by this point the same can probably be said of all of us. Posted a trust / distrust list on the first day (for what it’s worth: distrusted **Queuing** , trusted **storyteller** , all other people on both lists now confirmed townies) but then voted for **Pleonast** on the second day because “he seemed too happy to post trust / distrust lists.” Strongly pushed the idea of looking for networks on the second day; we know now that most of the “factions” were town versus town. Pushed to lynch **Fern Forest** on Day Three, saying there wasn’t enough time to get a bandwagon going against **Suburban Plankton**. Said on Day Four that he was voting for **Autolycus** “because his death is inevitable” but also said he thought that Auto was town – trying to cover all bases here? Rather quick on the trigger to respond to FoSing directed against him. (You can read his responses to prior accusations at [2494](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8456478#post8456478), [2629](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8460121#post8460121), and [3065](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8486480#post8486480).) **ArizonaTeach** accused him of being the Godfather and was promptly killed the next night, but _probably_ by the SK. Stuff that seems to indicate he’s town: Correctly pointed out that FCoD’s statement that he was willing to put his life on the line to prove his role claim was suspicious, since he _wouldn’t_ die if claim was correct. Strongly pushed for getting an accurate answer to the Beat Cop probability question (this may well have saved **Queuing** from a premature lynch; on the other hand, it also benefits **Lakai** himself by making people inclined to believe **pimaspinner** ’s ID of him as town). Insisted, correctly, that **cowgirl** should say nothing about whether she’s used her GA powers, ever. Voted for **Pygmy Rugger** yesterday, when a vote for townie **hocow** would have been just as easy and unlikely to raise suspicion. In general, has done a LOT of FoSing and voting for both **Pygmy Rugger** and **brewha** , and I think at least ONE of these has got to be Mafia. In short: Damned if I know, but we can’t afford to make any mistakes at all right now, and I think there are better bets. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3567 "2007-05-06T18:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Really? Whoops. Okay, scratch that part of my post. Anyway, the larger point stands: I find Lakai suspicious, and others have also posted that they find him suspicious. So why does Pygmy feel he’s trustworthy, to the point of following his lead? [/QUOTE] Please excuse me for not finding the specific posts I’m about to refer to. I tried, but it was a pain in the ass. The reason I’ve had **Lakai** on my probable-town list for the last few “days” is because he defended me when everybody was FoSing me the first time, when I said a few players were going to be gone for the weekend when they hadn’t. I still think it was a silly FoS, and at least **Lakai** thought so, also. That’s the main reason for FoSs I’ve recieved this game, and frankly, I think it’s silly. Concerning **cowgirl** , I already explained when responding to **storyteller** that I didn’t want to vote for her and just have my vote sitting in limbo. Once I got a little bit of support for my idea, I promply voted. It didn’t matter if it was **Lakai** , or somebody else. Finally, the post you quoted from me concerning the SK. It was in response to this: [QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] \ Suppose we think X is the SK, and Y is a mafia, and our suspicions are equally strong about both. Who would it be more advantageous to lynch today and who tomorrow? [/QUOTE] I was answering _your_ hypothetical, which assumed we knew on a given day who both the SK and a mafia member were. Notice my response said “assuming we have a bead on the SK”, we should kill him. I defend this postion by noting that the SK must have been against the town, because almost all of his kills were of now-confirmed townies. This can be seen on nights where the two night kills were both power town roles. So, I think that is an invalid point, also. How can you ( **SBS** ) ask a hypothetical question asking if we should kill the SK if we know who they are, knowing that he’s probably not on our side, and then use that as grounds to suspect me? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3568 "2007-05-06T20:53:23Z")
Well dammit, I knew MM was something bad! So we lynch another townie and the game is over. We basically have to be right each time. Well I still think pygmy rugger is scum. Not really sure why. My gut is also finding Kat suspicious. I think storyteller is town. We know pleonast is. Brewha I also think is town. Lakai did have a reading from the cop and came up town. I know I am town. Town: me, pleonast, storyteller, brewha, lakai So what the heck? Lynch Pymgy Rugger ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3569 "2007-05-06T20:54:58Z")
I haven’t completely gone over all the posts yet. I’m just damn glad we got the SK. I knew MonkeyMensch couldn’t be mafia based on his Sub Plankton voting. Never would have guessed him the SK though. We definetly got our work cut out for us now though. We can’t lynch anymore town and have a shot at winning this. Well, I guess Queuing is not the SK and the likelyhood of him being scum is diminishing in my mind. I gotta take a look at today’s posts before I cast a vote. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3570 "2007-05-06T21:13:56Z")
[QUOTE=brewha] I haven’t completely gone over all the posts yet. I’m just damn glad we got the SK. [/QUOTE] _We_ got the SK? Seems to me the MAFIA got the SK. Are you including yourself in the Mafia? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3571 "2007-05-06T21:39:58Z")
I can’t for the life of me make sense of the **Pygmy Rugger / brewha / Lakai** cluster. Within the last three game days: **brewha** has voted for **Lakai** twice (day 6; final vote on day 8) and **Pygmy Rugger** once (day 8). **Lakai** has voted for **Pygmy Rugger** twice (day 6; final vote on day 8) and **brewha** twice (final votes on days 6 and 7). **Pygmy Rugger** has voted for neither, and claims to trust **Lakai** because **Lakai** defended him way back when (never mind those two lynch votes since then!) Hell if I know whether we’ve got two very confused townies and one Mafia, or two or three Mafia doing an excellent job distancing themselves from each other – but I think the **Pygmy Rugger** lynch looks too easy. Six of the nine living players have voted for him over the past two days, with nobody raising much opposition, and nobody except silly ol’ me lifting a finger to swing the vote over to **hocow** during the two hours when they were tied. To me, this suggests the Mafia wants this lynch to go through. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3572 "2007-05-07T00:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Are you including yourself in the Mafia? :dubious: [/QUOTE] No. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3573 "2007-05-07T11:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] . I think we can agree that Queuing HAS to be town… So, using myself as an example, I know the remaining Mafia are among these six: brewha Fretful Porpentine Kat Lakai Pygmy Rugger Storyteller0910 [/QUOTE] I certainly don’t agree that Queuing HAS to be town. But, I’m willing to admit that he could be town at this point. My list would be Fretful Porpentine Kat Lakai Pygmy Rugger Storyteller0910 Queuing StarvingButStrong Basically everyone but myself and Pleonast. Any reason that there hasn’t been much suspicion cast towards Fretful Propentine. I have absolutley no read on him - he seems to have stayed under my radar for this game. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3574 "2007-05-07T14:40:30Z")
Hello? Bueller? We really need to get this hashed out quickly. I don’t want another wait to the last minute lynching to happen. We need a calm decisive vote. I’m torn. If I vote Pygmy Rugger, that means that I’m siding with Queuing (which I’m OK with) and Lakai (whom I’m still certian is mafia). I could vote Lakai again, but that has done nothing in the past but waste my vote and puts me on the sideline hoping that the other people’s votes are correct. I could go out on a limb and vote Fretful Porpentine based on his lack of participation (as it seems in my mind - I could be off on this) and his vote for me yesterday, but I don’t really have a good reason for it other than he seems less trustable than the others on the list. Argh! There’s so much pressure on today’s vote! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3575 "2007-05-07T14:43:23Z")
Hmm, I’m not sure who to vote for. I’ll probably change my mind (I definitely will if too many people jump on too quickly). For now, I vote **Kat** , for being the third to vote for **hocow**. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3576 "2007-05-07T14:45:08Z")
**Vote Count** 3- Pygmy Rugger - (StarvingButStrong, Kat, Queuing) 1- Kat - (Pleonast) And thats it. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3577 "2007-05-07T14:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=Lakai] brewha Fretful Porpentine Pygmy Rugger StarvingButStrong Kat When I can eliminate one more person from this list, I will make my vote. [/QUOTE] I meant to say something about this yesterday: I’m sure you know you don’t have to ‘know’ who ALL the mafia are at this point. You just need to figure out who you are MOST suspicious of at the moment. So I have to say, I find your post to be a little suspicious, as in, it’s a delaying tactice. “I’m not sticking my head out until I can see which way the wind is blowing.” ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3578 "2007-05-07T14:50:36Z")
**Lakai** , and \*\*Pleonast \*\* each need to post once \*\*Queuing \*\* needs to post twice \*\*Storyteller \*\* needs to post 3 times. Post hi mom or count the posts you are making, I don’t care if the posts have content, just get your posts in. ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3579 "2007-05-07T15:21:20Z")
I think it would be funny if I was modkilled for not posting enough ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/3580 "2007-05-07T15:33:11Z")
Here’s a new list: Lakai Pygmy Rugger Storyteller0910 Queuing These are the people who are not me or Pleonast and did not vote for Aguecheek’s lynching. Quite a happy coincidence that there are four on that list. To be fair, StoryTeller and Queuing did vote for and recant their votes. For all we know, there may only be two or three mafia left. I think that is is safe to say that Lakai and Pygmy Rugger are mafia. Storyteller got extremely defensive when I insinuated that he may be mafia. He has also been pretty anti me, so I believe that he is a definite canidate. Queuing? I’m still in the air. I say we take out Pygmy Rugger and Lakai first. If there’s mafia left, we take out Storyteller. If we still haven’t won, we take out Queuing. Vote Pygmy Rugger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=178) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=180)