# Werewolf a game Part 2 (this time with MAFIA!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565 "2007-03-26T16:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1241 "2007-04-03T15:08:54Z")
[QUOTE=zuma] Let’s just get you to 10 votes and then we can talk about who Blaster Master should look at. [/QUOTE] Uh huh, sure thing there… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1242 "2007-04-03T15:13:13Z")
[QUOTE=Queuing] **Gadarene** I urge you to change your vote, put me at 10. Same with you **Pimaspinner**. Let us begin the 2nd decision on whom to kill. [/QUOTE] I’m just agreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1243 "2007-04-03T15:16:07Z")
Ok, the threat against me is high enough and the time is short enough, that I’ll make my defense now. I’m a Mason. I don’t expect to survive the night, but by claiming I hope to increase the odds the Vig (and maybe the SK) takes out a Mafia. My actual knowledge is only a little better than the typical townie. And I’m not going to out any of the other Masons (who are apparently playing a better game than me 😃 ), so keep that in mind when reading my opinions. TRUST LIST **Blaster Master** : I was tending to trust before his claim, and I see no reason to target him now. He’ll kill for the town or he’ll die. **glee** : takes reasoned approaches. I’m almost certain he’s on the town’s side. **JSexton/chrisk** : I took **chrisk** as a townie who made a few stumbles. **JSexton** ’s analysis looks good, although his accusations against me (bandwagonning? giving tells by listing my suspects?) are silly. The least trusted on my trust list. **Menocchio** : I originally thought he was Mafia, but I believe was the breadcrumb given by the Detective. So unless he’s the Godfather (game over if he is), he’s town. **Rysto** and **storyteller** : both good analysis players. Show all the signs of being town. **zuma** : seeing through the bandwagons the Mafia have been trying to finish. MISTRUST LIST **Aguecheek** : I haven’t liked his votes or his reasoning. **Autolycus** : His posts are impossible for me to interpret. I can’t read patois, so even if he’s giving legit info, I don’t know what they are. He’s not helping me, so on the mistrust list. But the least mistrusted. **Gadarene** and **Queuing** : these are the scum. Bandwagonning me and others. Please, Vig, take out whichever one we don’t lynch. **Suburban Plankton** : I’m not liking how he’s voting. I think he’s currently unvoted me, so either he’s a Townie who’s finally stopped being fooled, or he’s a Mafia trying to distance himself from Gadarene and Queuing. Likely the latter. Thems your breadcrumbs; enjoy the feast. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1244 "2007-04-03T15:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=zuma] Let’s just get you to 10 votes and then we can talk about who Blaster Master should look at. [/QUOTE] Wow. Unvote Pleonast. Vote Queuing. Assasinate zuma ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1245 "2007-04-03T15:19:17Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] Ok, the threat against me is high enough and the time is short enough, that I’ll make my defense now. I’m a Mason. I don’t expect to survive the night, but by claiming I hope to increase the odds the Vig (and maybe the SK) takes out a Mafia. My actual knowledge is only a little better than the typical townie. And I’m not going to out any of the other Masons (who are apparently playing a better game than me 😃 ), so keep that in mind when reading my opinions. TRUST LIST **Blaster Master** : I was tending to trust before his claim, and I see no reason to target him now. He’ll kill for the town or he’ll die. **glee** : takes reasoned approaches. I’m almost certain he’s on the town’s side. **JSexton/chrisk** : I took **chrisk** as a townie who made a few stumbles. **JSexton** ’s analysis looks good, although his accusations against me (bandwagonning? giving tells by listing my suspects?) are silly. The least trusted on my trust list. **Menocchio** : I originally thought he was Mafia, but I believe was the breadcrumb given by the Detective. So unless he’s the Godfather (game over if he is), he’s town. **Rysto** and **storyteller** : both good analysis players. Show all the signs of being town. **zuma** : seeing through the bandwagons the Mafia have been trying to finish. MISTRUST LIST **Aguecheek** : I haven’t liked his votes or his reasoning. **Autolycus** : His posts are impossible for me to interpret. I can’t read patois, so even if he’s giving legit info, I don’t know what they are. He’s not helping me, so on the mistrust list. But the least mistrusted. **Gadarene** and **Queuing** : these are the scum. Bandwagonning me and others. Please, Vig, take out whichever one we don’t lynch. **Suburban Plankton** : I’m not liking how he’s voting. I think he’s currently unvoted me, so either he’s a Townie who’s finally stopped being fooled, or he’s a Mafia trying to distance himself from Gadarene and Queuing. Likely the latter. Thems your breadcrumbs; enjoy the feast. [/QUOTE] Have to say, you didn’t need to do that. I am falling on my sword, and trying to swing things at Zuma. This is what I was hoping to avoid, something such as this. You will find out though, you are wrong. Plus, dammit people! I never bandwagonned anybody! I drove the damn thing! ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1246 "2007-04-03T15:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=Queuing] Have to say, you didn’t need to do that. I am falling on my sword, and trying to swing things at Zuma. This is what I was hoping to avoid, something such as this. You will find out though, you are wrong. Plus, dammit people! I never bandwagonned anybody! I drove the damn thing! [/QUOTE] Are you at 10 votes yet? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1247 "2007-04-03T15:26:26Z")
**Queuing:** > [@](#): > > You will find out though, you are wrong. Yes he will, won’t he? (Is it a he, **Pleonast**?) Anyway, do we have ten on **Queuing** now? assassinate **zuma** ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1248 "2007-04-03T15:26:44Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] If, as you say, the SK is out to kill mafia, why aren’t you saying, ‘Here’s a knife, go to my son and god bless’? Why is ‘cutting down the number of deaths each night’ a goal to be sought? Citizen deaths, sure, but isn’t the only thing better than a dead scum TWO dead scum? [/quote] Fair question. Here’s my thinking: The town’s best weapon by far is the lynch. A directed nightkill is a distant second. Why? Two reasons. First, a lynch is public and accountable. You gain information from it, starting with the dead person’s alignment, followed by the votes for and against, who started the wagon, who followed it, who deflected it, etc. With a night kill, all you get is alignment. Period. Now, we’re doing the right thing by making the nightkill a publis discussion, but it still doesn’t have the same accountability as a lynch. Another part of that issue is that we won’t be able to find out the first lynch’s alignment until we’ve already settled on a target for Blaster. That means that death isn’t maximizing the information available. The second reason is that it’s in the town’s interest ot have as many days as possible. The shorter the game, the more likely it is to result in a mafia victory. More night kills=a shorter game. There you go. Directing a nightkiller shortens the game, makes kills based on incomplete info, and doesn’t yield the same informatino as a lynch. > [@](#): > > So, assuming you have called everything correctly, that Blaster Master is the SK and Pleonast, Queuing, Glee, and Aguecheek are all mafia, we could have these two situations: > > A) We hang Blaster Master today. The SK is dead, the Vig turns into an ordinary citizen. Tonight the Mafia kill the townie of their choice. Result come dawn of Day 3: Dead citizens - 7 Dead SK - 1 Dead Mafia _0_ > > B) We hang one of the four you call Mafia. The Mafia kill a townie of their choice. Overnight the SK kills another of the IDed Mafia. The Vig kills a third. Result come dawn of Day 3: Dead citizens - 7 Dead Mafia **3** > > (Okay, this ignores protections and blockers and such, but…) > > Please explain to me why you think it’s, your words, pressing to kill the SK? Why isn’t it better to be rid of three Mafia and leave the SK for another day? Well, it also assumes that I’m right. I’m certainly not infallible. That’s why I’d rather have a discussion about each of the folks that I called out, and listen to how they defend themselves. I may well change my mind based on their defense and/or claim. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1249 "2007-04-03T15:28:36Z")
[QUOTE=zuma] Are you at 10 votes yet? [/QUOTE] only 9 ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1250 "2007-04-03T15:28:49Z")
I’m not sure where you’re going with that claim, Pleonast. But there we have it. We have a day for real masons to out him. If we have a counter claim we string his ass up. If not, more shit to look at tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1251 "2007-04-03T15:29:49Z")
When a man’s falling on his sword, the least I can do is hold it for him. Unvote **Gadarene** Vote **Queuing** Assassinate **Zuma** _hopes like hell this is right_ ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1252 "2007-04-03T15:30:58Z")
_sigh_ Fine. unvote **Pleonast** vote **Queuing** **Queuing** , I don’t think you’re scum, but I guess this is the only way we’re going to get any answers. I’ll say this, though: if you’re town, and I’m town, and **zuma’s** town, and **Pleonast** is a Mason, and **Blaster Master** is the Vigilante…then the Mafia are doing a damn fine job hiding themselves and letting the rest of us tear each other to pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1253 "2007-04-03T15:33:20Z")
[QUOTE=Queuing] Have to say, you didn’t need to do that. I am falling on my sword, and trying to swing things at Zuma. This is what I was hoping to avoid, something such as this. You will find out though, you are wrong. [/QUOTE] No, it was necessary. This “one of column A and one of column B” just does not work in the Town’s best interest at this point. We haven’t killed _any_ scum yet. We can do better, and I believe my trust/mistrust lists are reliable enough to direct the Town’s voting. And since I hope you get lynched, I say the Vig should assassinate Gadarene. What’s with the **zuma** vote anyway? It was started by **Queuing**! Think people! ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1254 "2007-04-03T15:33:52Z")
OK, Queuing, role-claim time. You’re going down and that’s fine by me. Blaster-master, give us your town-approved choice so they can defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1255 "2007-04-03T15:35:21Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] My concern was, if the deaths laid out exactly as I had publicly posted, I thought it would have laid too much suspicion on me, and I would have been pegged as the VIG or SK right at the beginning of day two, and we’d be having this discussion 3 days ago, except with \*\*chrisk \*\* instead of you. [/quote] That doesn’t address the question. You say you thought about killing Queuing, but went with CaerieD instead. Why did you believe that CaerieD would be killed if you didn’t kill her that night? ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1256 "2007-04-03T15:36:15Z")
[QUOTE=zuma] I’m just agreeing with you. [/QUOTE] No, you are not. You are still saying BM gets a choice. In fact, \*\*Malacandra \*\*said the same thing. Why the hell would BM get a choice? The only reason to suggest it is because he has made it clear that he wants to kill Gadarene and/or myself while protecting you, Pleonast and himself. BM does not get a choice, and if I had my way neither would you two. I find it suspicious that Malacandra wants to give BM a choice too. Therefore once you find out that I am town, hopefully you will lynch: **Zuma (if BM doesn’t kill him) Pleonast BM Storyteller Malacandra Sturmhauke JSexton Hocow Autocylus** On preview, **JSexton** I think most of those people have already defended. I know I certainly have, numerous times, and Pleonast just claimed. You already don’t buy what I say, so I won’t bother saying it again. Pleonast is basically saying he is a mason, true or not. I am not inclined to believe him (unless he didn’t read the whole thread before posting) because it seems so unnecessary. I think we have some more scum here trying to get a mason to come out and say “what the hell are talking about? You aren’t a mason, I am” giving the mob another known target to go after. Anyway, I am at 9, who will cast the suspicious last vote? To bad you already switched **Winston** , you could have had the honour of being the final vote in stringing up another townie. On further preview. Yes it was started by me. Damn it sure appears I like to start this things, huh? Day 1, Sturmhauke, got him to 4 or 5, day 2 MB got him to 9 (I think) and now Zuma. I probably shouldn’t be saying this however. Oh well, it was fun. I solemnly vow I am town. Thats it, thats my claim. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1257 "2007-04-03T15:37:24Z")
**Pleonast:** > [@](#): > > No, it was necessary. This “one of column A and one of column B” just does not work in the Town’s best interest at this point. We haven’t killed any scum yet. We can do better, and I believe my trust/mistrust lists are reliable enough to direct the Town’s voting. > > And since I hope you get lynched, I say the Vig should assassinate Gadarene. What’s with the zuma vote anyway? It was started by Queuing! Think people! Wow, are you wrong about this. The Column A/Column B strategy is the _only_ wise one at the moment. Can anyone comment on the math in my post at #1217? Specifically, if the Mafia gull us into eliminating two citizens on our own (by lynching and by directing the putative Vigilante into action) and then at least one more citizen gets taken out (either by the SK or the Mafia), are we then in as deep trouble as we would appear to be, even if it means that the scum-scheme is then outed? ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1258 "2007-04-03T15:37:25Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] No, it was necessary. This “one of column A and one of column B” just does not work in the Town’s best interest at this point. We haven’t killed _any_ scum yet. We can do better, and I believe my trust/mistrust lists are reliable enough to direct the Town’s voting. And since I hope you get lynched, I say the Vig should assassinate Gadarene. What’s with the **zuma** vote anyway? It was started by **Queuing**! Think people! [/QUOTE] And here we have another person, from the other side of the debate, wanting to silence all who question him and his buddies. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1259 "2007-04-03T15:38:00Z")
11- Queuing - (kivvik, StarvingButStrong, zuma, Pleonast, brewha, glee, Winston Smith, FCoD, Pygmy Rugger, Malacandra, Gadarene) 5- Gadarene- (Smitty, Blaster Master, nesta, ArizonaTeach, sturmhauke) 4- Pleonast - (Fern Forest, Fretful Porpentine, Kat, pimaspinner) 2- Blaster Master - (hocow, Lakai) 2- Pygmy Rugger - (MTS, Menocchio) 1- Zuma - (Queuing) 1- Menocchio - (Autolycus) Malacandra’s 10th vote was at 8:29 am my time. So 8:29PM \*\*Queuing \*\* dies unless there is some unvoting. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1260 "2007-04-03T15:40:48Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] Fair question. Here’s my thinking: The town’s best weapon by far is the lynch. A directed nightkill is a distant second. Why? Two reasons. First, a lynch is public and accountable. You gain information from it, starting with the dead person’s alignment, followed by the votes for and against, who started the wagon, who followed it, who deflected it, etc. With a night kill, all you get is alignment. Period. Now, we’re doing the right thing by making the nightkill a publis discussion, but it still doesn’t have the same accountability as a lynch. Another part of that issue is that we won’t be able to find out the first lynch’s alignment until we’ve already settled on a target for Blaster. That means that death isn’t maximizing the information available. The second reason is that it’s in the town’s interest ot have as many days as possible. The shorter the game, the more likely it is to result in a mafia victory. More night kills=a shorter game. There you go. Directing a nightkiller shortens the game, makes kills based on incomplete info, and doesn’t yield the same informatino as a lynch. Well, it also assumes that I’m right. I’m certainly not infallible. That’s why I’d rather have a discussion about each of the folks that I called out, and listen to how they defend themselves. I may well change my mind based on their defense and/or claim. [/QUOTE] Your shit is stinking to high heaven, JSexton. We’re going to have a boatload of new information tomorrow, and we need the vig. If you end up dead tonight I’ll be pleased. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=64)