# Werewolf a game Part 2 (this time with MAFIA!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565 "2007-03-26T16:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1461 "2007-04-03T20:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] I’ve never played this game before, but it was my understanding that the Masons were supposed to try and keep it to themselves. If that wasn’t the case, why don’t they just all announce, on the first day “Hey, look at us, we’re all Masons”? Then, they would be unlynchable by the town, but the Mafia would simply pick them all off, one by one. Sure, the game would start off with 1 to 1 kills, [/quote] How does that follow? How do the masons massclaiming lead to mafia kills? Answer: they don’t. So that’s a false premise. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that it would have been good for the Masons to die. I’m saying that now, the Mafia know who three town power roles are. That’s not very advantageous to us. So what’s your alternative? The masons served their purpose. We had a discussion, we had votes, and now we have information and confirmed town, except that the townies didn’t have to die to be confirmed. That is a big advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1462 "2007-04-03T20:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] As for the question of how many masons would need to counter claim both Pleonast and Zuma, well, two of course. That way, no matter who’s lying, we have two 1:1 trades again. Good times all around. [/QUOTE] Actually, only one is need to counter-claim. We lynch the counter-claimer tonight. If he’s scum, we get a free kill. If he’s not, you have _two_ scum, me and zuma. This isn’t end-game, so there’s basically no reason for a scum to false claim now. ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1463 "2007-04-03T20:39:04Z")
Ah, I suppose that is true. I haven’t thought of that. Sigh, it looks like I was wrong… Dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1464 "2007-04-03T20:40:01Z")
Hahahahahahahahahaha 😃😃😃😃 You people are ridiculous. For the record, I agree fully with **Queuing’s** analysis here: > [@](#): > > Option A: > > This is a conspiracy between scum, a well thought-out and executed plan. I see no reason for futher Mason outings. If this is what has happened then it will fall through tonight, after my death and the assassination of Zuma. Due to this being a team game, they win if the Mafia wins. They see the writing on the wall, that they will die soon so they have decided to fake claim in hopes of getting more townies to proclaim their roles. While the mafia knows who is town, they too need to know roles and whom the SK is. The more they know the easier the game becomes for them. > > Option B: > > The town has been ripping themselves apart. I am town, I swear it. This is a disastrous outcome for the town. All 4-6 of us have actually been on the same team, and just not trusting each other. The Mafia has been sitting back, enjoying the show, gaining more and more knowledge and power. And I’m really, really, _really_ entertained by **Blaster Master’s** two recent posts proclaiming that he has “no doubt” that I’m scum. I’m vanilla. I’ve never claimed to be anything but vanilla. And when you lynch me, you’ll discover that I’m vanilla. And you better have a good plan put in place for that eventuality, and that plan better include _some_ prospect of taking on the **Blaster Master** - **Pleonast** - **zuma** - **sturmhauke** bloc that I’ve been railing about for the last fifteen pages…because as it stands right now, y’all are letting them go scot free on the basis of a trio of convenient role claims. Look, **Blaster Master** might be the Vigilante. **Pleonast** and **zuma** might actually be Masons. But I’m a vanilla citizen, which means that somewhere out there the Mafia are laughing their asses off. And will somebody _please_ take a look at my math post at #1217? If it turns out that **Pleonast** , **Blaster Master** , and/or **zuma** are all false-claiming, is the Town pretty well fucked by a bloodbath tonight? Yes or no? For the love of Pete, I’d at least like to know if my memory is avenged once I’m lynched and everyone says, “Oops…um, sorry, Gad.” ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1465 "2007-04-03T20:41:11Z")
Ok, I’m back and about to start my re-read. I just want to address the Mason issue now. If **Pleonast** and **zuma** are lying, we need **one** counter-claim now. Remember what happened in the last game when **Winston Smith** falsely claimed to be a Mason a couple days after **One and Only Wanderers** had claimed Mason? Nobody believed **Winston** , and he was promptly lynched. The same thing will happen to any Mason who stays quiet now but tries to claim that **Pleonast** and **zuma** are Mafia later on. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1466 "2007-04-03T20:44:01Z")
Well, I was too stupid to realize that BM would have the benefit of knowing the lynchee’s role despite everyone beating this over my head for hours (that was embarrassing and I want to acknowlege that hehe). I don’t think I could handle a conspiricy of that magnetude. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1467 "2007-04-03T20:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Winston Smith] Right now, stopping the clock benefits you and you’re Mafia pals. You’ve got this town so mixed up, they don’t know which way is up. You guys are stalling. You’re confusing the townies. You’re trying to draw out the remaining town power roles. You’re playing hard, and playing smart, but you’re not fooling me. Let’s get that clock ticking, people, or we’re all gonna get Columbian neckties. [/QUOTE] Except for you, we’re all having good, reasoned discourse. We’re gaining a tremendous amount of information about who the scum are. All you’re trying to do is stifle it. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1468 "2007-04-03T20:47:14Z")
**zuma:** > [@](#): > > Well, I was too stupid to realize that BM would have the benefit of knowing the lynchee’s role despite everyone beating this over my head for hours (that was embarrassing and I want to acknowlege that hehe). I don’t think I could handle a conspiricy of that magnetude. I’ll tell you one thing, **zuma**. If you actually _are_ a mason, you’re amazingly fricking dense. The damage that lynching another vanilla citizen (um, that’d be me) will do to the Town is almost worth it just to see the reaction and/or squirming of you, **Blaster Master** , and **Pleonast**. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1469 "2007-04-03T20:48:16Z")
**JSexton:** > [@](#): > > We’re gaining a tremendous amount of information about who the scum are. Are we? What information is that, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![kivvik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/cdc98d/32.png) [@kivvik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kivvik)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1470 "2007-04-03T20:49:32Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] Actually, only one is need to counter-claim. We lynch the counter-claimer tonight. If he’s scum, we get a free kill. If he’s not, you have _two_ scum, me and zuma. This isn’t end-game, so there’s basically no reason for a scum to false claim now. [/QUOTE] Ah, **Pleonast** , we’ve had some bad blood between us (well, between me and you, and not so much bad as random) but I agree with you on this. If we get a counter, we lynch them and tomorrow lynch/VIG the two of you. If no counter, then hopefully we have two knowns with us. As for the VIG target tonight, since **Gadarene** seems to be the lynch target now, I propose **Winston Smith**. He’s kicking up quite a fuss over what’s happened, and generally acting strangely aggressive. And he’s harping a helluva lot on BM’s role and how he should go about his-business-that-is-actually-ours. Naturally I do not support the VIGging or SKing (although it’s not like the SK is gonna listen to us all the time) of **Autolycus**. I still stand by him being pro-town, and he was listed as such by **JSexton** also I believe. Granted, if **JSexton** turns out to be scum, then it’s not gonna shine well on **Autolycus** and I. But that’s a risk I’m willing to take, as I read **Auto’s** posts that way, even if everyone else dismisses them as ‘garbage’. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1471 "2007-04-03T20:49:34Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] And will somebody _please_ take a look at my math post at #1217? If it turns out that **Pleonast** , **Blaster Master** , and/or **zuma** are all false-claiming, is the Town pretty well fucked by a bloodbath tonight? Yes or no? [/QUOTE] There cannot be ten scum. Ten is the lynching number. If there were ten, they they’d simply be able to log on and speed lynch a townie. That would break the game. Therefore, 8 or 9 scum. Probably 9. So we aren’t quite as dire as you make us out to be. Your continued insistence that you are being attacked by a group of scum in a loud conspiracy is not making me feel any better about you. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1472 "2007-04-03T20:50:00Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] **zuma:** I’ll tell you one thing, **zuma**. If you actually _are_ a mason, you’re amazingly fricking dense. The damage that lynching another vanilla citizen (um, that’d be me) will do to the Town is almost worth it just to see the reaction and/or squirming of you, **Blaster Master** , and **Pleonast**. [/QUOTE] Oh, the reply I’d like to make. That would violate the rules of this board, though. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1473 "2007-04-03T20:52:58Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] Actually, only one is need to counter-claim. We lynch the counter-claimer tonight. If he’s scum, we get a free kill. If he’s not, you have _two_ scum, me and zuma. This isn’t end-game, so there’s basically no reason for a scum to false claim now. [/QUOTE] But see, it’s overwhelmingly likely that you’re telling the truth. If there are going to be counterclaimers, I want two of them exposed, since they are 90% likely to be scum. That way, we bag two. I think it’s a moot point, though, since no one is coming forward. ---
**Author:** ![Queuing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Queuing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queuing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1474 "2007-04-03T20:53:00Z")
I still stand by my analysis quoted by Gadarene, and I still think he is town. Here is that aforementioned [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8425282&postcount=1404) However the fact that it will only take 1 mason to claim, as pointed out Pleonast in post 1464, has made me think it really is Option B. My Scum list: **Sturmhauke 10 posts Fretful Porcupine 13 posts StarvingbutStrong 13 posts Smitty 13 posts Hocow 14 posts Kivvik 14 posts AguaCheek 18 posts ArizonaTeach 19 posts** I have totally lost count of votes. So I don’t know if any of these people have votes as of right now. Yet here is my new (and improved) vote: Lynch Aguacheek And **Zuma** I am glad you said that. Cause that all thing was really annoying me 🙂 PS: Even though my past few posts may not look like it, I swear I know the difference between “Know” and “now”. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1475 "2007-04-03T20:53:02Z")
**JSexton:** > [@](#): > > There cannot be ten scum. Ten is the lynching number. If there were ten, they they’d simply be able to log on and speed lynch a townie. That would break the game. **NAF** specifically said there can be up to ten Mafia in post #72. See, [look](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8399889&postcount=72). If you think he’s wrong, perhaps a clarification is in order. > [@](#): > > Your continued insistence that you are being attacked by a group of scum in a loud conspiracy is not making me feel any better about you. Conspiracy? No. Persistent voting bloc managing to evade all accountability for their wagoning? Hell yes. **zuma:** > [@](#): > > Oh, the reply I’d like to make. That would violate the rules of this board, though. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1476 "2007-04-03T20:53:27Z")
[QUOTE=Queuing] So know you are saying the beat cop should be gathering info? Umm, what do you think s/he has been doing? I sure as hell hope they have some info at least, 2 nights worth in fact. But for the love of god, do not claim. [/QUOTE] I understand they’re collecting information. I’m making recommendations for whom they should investigate. Obviously, it may be ill-advised to investigate me if they’re quite certain they believe me, or if they have good reason to distrust someone who distrusts me or the mason. Obviously, they have information that I do not, and, I’m impressed at their hiding (assuming the role exists), because I really don’t have any idea who they are. > [@](#): > > How are we to clear up the mason fact or not? I just don’t see how it can be done without multiple masons counter-claiming? > > Or is one enough? I am asking this honestly, I don’t see how we can just blindly accept their claim if one is NOT enough. If all it takes is one, then ok, I agree with you. It depends on counter-claims. If the mafia decide to claim mason, then an equal number of the true masons need to come forth as well. We lynch one pretty much at random, and if he’s scum, we lynch all those who confirmed him, and if he’s confirmed mason, then we lynch the other group. Bottom line, unless it’s VERY late game, it doesn’t seem to make sense to me for mafia to claim mason, because it is AT BEST, a 1-1 trade, which is greatly in our favor; and at worst, it’s an N-0 trade, which just destroys them. Either way, even if we see a counter-claim today, I don’t think it’s worth hashing that out now. We’ve got a good lynchee, and he’s going to net us some information. > [@](#): > > However, I see your logic. I see believing their role claim. I have been believing all other ones (ie Chrisk) no matter how stupid it seemed they were at that time, so why should I switch at this time? Therefore I will ask the 2 Masons who we should direct BM at? (Other then myself, for arguments sake) I suppose my suggestion is for **AguaCheek** or **JSexton**. I can explain if need be I agree with this idea. Since the **Pleonast** , **Zuma** , and **Menocchio** are the closest we have to confirmed townies, I give the most weight to whom they advise I should target. Either way, I’m willing to follow what appears to be the beat of the town. At this point I recommend you be allowed to live and be one of the prime suspects tomorrow, but if most of the town disagrees and wants you dead, I’ll target you. That said, can all recommendations for who my target be include both a scum vs. non-scum condition on the lynchee and, to avoid ambiguiousness, list the “lynchee is scum” target first, and the “lynch is townie” target second. IE, my recommendation is, and I repeat, Scum: \*\* Winston/Aguecheeck \*\* or Not Scum: **Autolycus/JSexton.** Either way, we should gain a good amount of information. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1477 "2007-04-03T20:55:03Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] **JSexton:** Are we? What information is that, exactly? [/QUOTE] Well, we’ve managed to confirm two town (barring a late counterclaim) without losing anyone. Suddenly their opinions count for much more. Winston is outing himself. There’s some great nuggets around. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1478 "2007-04-03T20:55:07Z")
You’re adorable, **Blaster Master**. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1479 "2007-04-03T20:56:21Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] How does that follow? How do the masons massclaiming lead to mafia kills? Answer: they don’t. So that’s a false premise. [/QUOTE] If all the Masons were to claim on the first day, it means that that the Mafia will be able to pick them off one by one, at night. The town would know who all the Masons were, but so would the Mafia. The Doctor can’t protect them all, and they’d be able to pick the Masons off, one by one. Why wouldn’t the Mafia attack the Masons? [QUOTE=JSexton] So what’s your alternative? The masons served their purpose. We had a discussion, we had votes, and now we have information and confirmed town, except that the townies didn’t have to die to be confirmed. That is a big advantage. [/QUOTE] Yes, I realize now that they’ve served their purpose. Assuming they’re telling the truth, that is. I just expected the Masons and Vig to try and hide their roles from the Mafia until the endgame, and not expose themselves on the second day. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1480 "2007-04-03T20:56:45Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] **JSexton:** **NAF** specifically said there can be up to ten Mafia in post #72. See, [look](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8399889&postcount=72). If you think he’s wrong, perhaps a clarification is in order. [/QUOTE] I know what he said. Still, having ten scum would make the game a footrace to see who can amass ten votes first. Broken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=75)