# Werewolf a game Part 2 (this time with MAFIA!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565 "2007-03-26T16:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 92
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1821 "2007-04-06T12:52:21Z")
**Unvote: JSexton** I can understand his arguments regarding the SK/Vig. I’m not sure I agree completely, but it’s probably moot as the vig has to kill anyway… I just wanted to put him out there as a topic of discussion because of chrisk’s actions early in the game. In the meantime I’ll be taking a look at some of the people lying low and not posting a lot. I’ll agree with Queuing in that he and I and a few other people need to shut up for a while, and let others start defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1822 "2007-04-06T12:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=Suburban Plankton] The problem is that **Blaster Master** (I just can’t bring myself to refer to him by his initials) is already deciding his own kills; he’s just making it look like we are making the decision for him. Think about it. When Blaster Master made his claim, where was **Winston Smith** on everyone’s radar? He was nowhere! There were at least half a dozen people with more suspicion on them, yet somehow Winsotn’s name rose to the top. And, oops! He turned out to be town! Sorry folks! [/QUOTE] I proposed earlier that Pleonast handle the MB kill and votes, and he counter-proposed me. I’m willing to do it, unless there is a lot of objection. As I stated earlier I was away when MB threw up Winston as a target and kind of rammed it through, and it still bothers me. I have a bit less trust of MB right now. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1823 "2007-04-06T13:03:29Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] Information and discussion time, but especially information. A kill following a lynch is firing blindly. Even with a conditional statement, it’s still limited, since we don’t know how the mafia follows up on it. Also, it’s in the town’s interests to make the game last as long (in terms of game “days”) as possible. Statistically speaking, more kills make the game shorter, which is to the scum’s advantage. Also, BM may turn on us at a crucial juncture. Sure, we’ll kill him ten next day, after the damage is done. We can’t just kill BM. He’s still a townie. But he’s also a liability. Tasking out the SK should be our first priority, but of course we should send him after mafia as well. [/QUOTE] OK, I can see your point here. I still think he can be a valuable asset for now. That is, we should be trying to figure out who the SK is now so we can dispatch him in a few days. When the game gets closer to the end the Vig becomes more of a liability. Although I understand a little more what his point is, my suspicion for **JSexton** remains. **zuma** I think you should handle the **Blaster Master** kills. Having a Mason pick the extra person to kill increases our advantage because there are probably two or three masons still out there. This way they won’t get outed unnecessarily if the town starts voting for **BM** to kill one. Out of curiosity, why do you always use MB instead of BM? –FCOD –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1824 "2007-04-06T13:04:36Z")
Argh, double sig lines. I’ll be good and follow the rules about no editing… –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1825 "2007-04-06T13:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=FlyingCowOfDoom] **zuma** I think you should handle the **Blaster Master** kills. Having a Mason pick the extra person to kill increases our advantage because there are probably two or three masons still out there. This way they won’t get outed unnecessarily if the town starts voting for **BM** to kill one. Out of curiosity, why do you always use MB instead of BM? –FCOD –FCOD [/QUOTE] I’ve screwed up everyone’s name here, pretty much! I’ll just go with the town concensus and be around for the mad last-minute voting and such. I just want to avoid any more BM running the show. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1826 "2007-04-06T14:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] Have you forgotten the context? Originally, the conversation was about whether the scum were sitting back, posting only occasionally, and watching townies tear each other apart. You disagreed with that, saying that obviously the mafia were sowing discontent. [/QUOTE] What? Context? How could there be context when I wasn’t actually responding to anything? I said that the mafia has been successful in creating white noise. \*\*Do you disagree with that? \*\* You avoided that part of my post, I noticed. Since, by my calculations (and let me go back and check here…hmmm…yes) we have lynched two villagers, it seems to me that the mafia is confusing the issue. And this, incidentally, was exactly what I was talking about when I said that every post would be examined ad infinitum, which, when 30 people are doing could only help the mafia. Looking forward, I see you might have been confused in the posting, which kinda proves the point. Anyway, FTR, I don’t think that you’re scum…at the moment! I reserve the right to be absolutely positively wrong like I have been so far. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1827 "2007-04-06T14:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=Suburban Plankton] We \*all \*have a bad track record right now. But if we keep picking targets for the Vigilante, and they keep coming up town, whose fault is it? Do we just suck at weeding out bad guys? Or is the Mafia influencing our choice? (Of course they are, the question is how successful they can continue to be). Or is Blaster Master influencing our choice so that he gets to kill whomever he wants? There’s no accountability. Let Blaster Master pick whatever target he wants. Make him announce it. Then hold him accountable for it. If he continues to kill Citizens, then we get rid of him. Even if he is the Vigilante, and he is firmly on the town’s side, he is a liability if he keeps killing us. As long as we tell him what to do, then he is not accountable for his own actions. He is the only person in town who has this luxury, and I don’t like it. [/QUOTE] Ding! Ding! Ding! That’s my Scum Detector going off. This plan translates to: a) let BM pick his own targets and b) lych him the moment he picks a target wrong. This helps the town how, exactly? We lose the townie BM kills and then we lose the services of our ‘tool’ AND if it turns out BM is indeed SK and not Vig, we also lose the services of the Vig. AND, let me point out, that if we were to kill everyone who voted for a town kill by mistake…well, this game would be over, yes? And the upside of this ridiculous plan? Why, BM is “accountable” for his choice. Oh, hoo rah. Wasn’t the entire point of the deal that we let BM live IN ORDER TO be able to call the shots on who he kills?? And Suburban Plankton proposes we give up our control, in exchange for nothing more killing BM the first time he guesses wrong? Hell, why not kill BM right off? Save ourself the townie that would be his ‘mistake.’ Does ANYBODY gain by this plan? Why, yes. The MAFIA, since the number of scum potentially killed each cycle goes from 3 to 1. VOTE SUBURBAN PLANKTON. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1828 "2007-04-06T14:44:15Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the question of directing Vig kills, I’m not convinced we should be giving Blaster Master orders (assuming he even is the real Vig). Right now we only have 1 dead Mafia and 7 townies, including one Mason and the Detective. The Mafia will want to get Blaster Master to kill a townie, and with their numbers right now they have a fair chance at influencing things to be in their favor. But if the town votes, we get to SEE the decision-making process, and the Mafia can only run this strategy so long before it becomes apparent who is directing the votes toward townies. If **Blaster Master** picks his own victims, we don’t learn anything about how that decision was made except what he chooses to tell us. If we’re agreed that all information about who voted for whom and why is valuable, the town should continue to vote on the vig kill. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1829 "2007-04-06T14:48:46Z")
I was so struck by the scumminess of Suburban Plankton’s post that I had to reply right away. I see now that Lakai make the same points before I did – sorry for the duplication and stepping on your toes. (If it makes you feel any better, you’ve just moved onto my ‘probably trustworthy’ list.) ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1830 "2007-04-06T15:05:48Z")
[QUOTE=MonkeyMensch] > [@Aguecheek](#): > > Although chrisk was at the top of his FOS list, he voted brewha. I’m beginning to think that folks are just reading single posts after searching and not reading them in context. This was immediately following NAF’s announcement that chrisk was being replaced. Remember that? [/quote] Yeah, I do remember it. He said it on post #739…35 posts _after_ you said that. Wanna talk about context, I’d say you should try backchecking yourself first. > [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > > [@Aguecheek](#): > > > > That in itself says nothing concrete, since he refers first to the forbidden thread, and secondly to the actual game thread, but it’s still kinda hinky, y’ask me… > > You’re right there. It says nothing concrete because it’s referring to the werewolf game. And I don’t think there are any noobs in here anymore: anyone who went Day 2 of this game is a grizzled veteran. Yeah, it was referring to the werewolf thread, but it also referred to the forbidden werewolf thread wherein **chrisk** first came upon, and shot down, the plan he himself proposed not much later on. I only found it strange that you’d claimed to have followed the first game incredibly closely, but hadn’t read the companion thread. I followed the game pretty casually and still read the forbidden thread. [Inference Starts Here] Denying that you’d read that thread could give you plausible deniability that you’d heard of **chrisk** ’s plan, should it not turn out as well as he’d hoped. Because you _had_ heard of it…when he brought up the idea in the mafia thread. [End Inference] Vote MonkeyMensch ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1831 "2007-04-06T15:14:52Z")
I disagree 100% with Suburban Plankton’s assessment of how to handle Blaster. Treating it like a second lynch (with votes, IOW) is the only way to minimize the inherent problems with a vig. I do agree to let a Mason suggest targets, although that can wait until we’re nearly ready to lynch someone. Either Zuma or Pleonast is fine with me. And I’m fine with having a single target for Blaster, or a pair of conditional targets based on the alignment of the lynchee. I think having both options open could be useful. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1832 "2007-04-06T15:17:23Z")
Also, upon reflection, vote Suburban Plankton. Primarily because your playstyle seems to have changed dramatically from the first game. Before, you posted frequently with quality analysis. Now, your posting has dropped off. I recall several posts from you promising content soon, but very little follow-through. And what analysis you’ve given seems wrongheaded. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1833 "2007-04-06T15:17:29Z")
[QUOTE=Lakai] Why should Blaster Master be held accountable for his kill? Why not hold you accountable for your vote? I think the first two days have proved that anyone could easily vote for a citizen. Why should Blaster Master be killed if he makes another mistake? We can’t let Blaster Master choose on his own because we still don’t know if he is mafia or not. Until I see Blaster Master kill scum, I will be against him deciding his own victim. Tell me again how your argument doesn’t favor the mafia and helps the town? [/QUOTE] I agree. That post from \*\*Suburban Plankton \*\* is one of the most suspicious things I’ve seen in the entire thread and then **Pygmy Rugger** endorsing it. I would like to congratulate both of them for putting themselves at the top of my suspicion list. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1834 "2007-04-06T15:18:23Z")
[1817](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8435445&postcount=1817) \*\* MALACANDRA\*\*! First and last warning to the whole group. Use the edit feature, you \*will \* get mod killed. This was one. Next time ANYONE uses the edit feature they are out. and after I posted a gender correction for you and everything. I am dissapointed. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1835 "2007-04-06T15:24:37Z")
Hmm, I don’t have a lot to add. I am still suspicious of **Aguecheek** because of the spurious reasoning against **sturmhauke** , way back on day one. I agree with the reasoning against **pimaspinner** by **storyteller0910** in [post=8434473]post 1787[/post]. **StarvingButStrong** [post=8436004]makes a good case[/post] against **Suburban Plankton** (as does **Fretful Porpentine** in the next post). Those are my top suspicions. No vote from me yet. By the way, I think it’s obvious but want to state it explicitly anyway: _Masons, we must not disclose how many of us there are until we’ve all been revealed and there is only one of us left._ We need to keep the Mafia guessing how much we know. And prevent a Mafia from claiming Mason after we’re all dead. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1836 "2007-04-06T15:25:03Z")
A recap of the discussion and voting on the Vig kill on Day 2, because I feel it may be useful: **Blaster Master** claims to be the Vig at post #1085 and suggests that the town should tell him whom to kill. He proposes a list of names of people he thinks are scum, in decreasing order of certainty: **Gadarene, Queuing, Winston Smith, Aguecheek, brewha, ArizonaTeach, Pleonast, hocow, and Pygmy Rugger**. **Rysto** (1086) suggests that the town should vote every day on a Vig kill as well as a lynch. **pimaspinner** questions this proposal. **nesta** (1166) posts an [analysis of how this plan plays out](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8423147&postcount=1166) if BM is the Vig, SK, Mafia, or town and proposes that the town should follow through on **Rysto’s** suggestion for now. **Queuing** (1203) says that if he hangs, BM should take out someone from the “other side”, namely **Pleonast** or **zuma**. If it turns out they’re all town, they should go back to Rysto’s suggestion and lynch **JSexton**. **zuma** proposes lynching Queuing and Vig-killing **JSexton**. **Gadarene** agrees with **Queuing** – the town should kill Queuing or Gadarene, and then someon from the other “bloc,” **zuma, storyteller, glee, or Pleonast**. **Queuing** (1239) proposes that we vote in dark orange for the Vig kill, and immediately votes **zuma**. **Pleonast** makes his Mason claim. **Pygmy Rugger** , **Gadarene** , and **Malacandra** vote to assassinate **zuma**. **Pleonast** votes to assassinate **Gadarene**. **StarvingButStrong** proposes a conditional: town lynches **Queuing or Gadarene** , BM kills the other if the lynched person was Mafia; if town, BM kills **Pleonast**. **Gadarene** wants to emend this to “Pleonast or zuma,” but otherwise agrees to go along with it. **Pygmy Rugger** votes for this plan. **nesta** likes the plan but thinks **zuma** would be a better target than **Pleonast** (does not cast a dark orange vote). **Gadarene** votes yes for the plan. **WinstonSmith** votes to assassinate **MadTheSwine**. **MonkeyMensch** votes to assassinate **Gadarene** if Queuing is scum and **zuma** if he’s not. **ArizonaTeach** votes to assassinate **zuma**. **storyteller0109** and **FlyingCowofDoom** vote to assassinate **Gadarene** if Queuing is scum and **zuma** if not. **pimaspinner** votes to assassinate **zuma**. There is a great deal of argument about whether there should be conditionals or not; see p. 28 for the gory details. **zuma** claims Mason. **Pleonast** confirms the claim. **JSexton** says that a good place to look for an alternative target for BM would be among those calling for **zuma** ’s head. [More to come…] ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1837 "2007-04-06T15:33:43Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] Also, upon reflection, vote Suburban Plankton. Primarily because your playstyle seems to have changed dramatically from the first game. Before, you posted frequently with quality analysis. Now, your posting has dropped off. I recall several posts from you promising content soon, but very little follow-through. And what analysis you’ve given seems wrongheaded. [/QUOTE] The same can be said for **sturmhauke** can’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1838 "2007-04-06T15:34:54Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] I agree. That post from \*\*Suburban Plankton \*\* is one of the most suspicious things I’ve seen in the entire thread and then **Pygmy Rugger** endorsing it. I would like to congratulate both of them for putting themselves at the top of my suspicion list. [/QUOTE] I’ve reread the exchange three times, and I don’t see how you infer that I was endorsing his plan. In fact, I was pointing out several flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1839 "2007-04-06T15:44:21Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] [1817](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8435445&postcount=1817) \*\* MALACANDRA\*\*! First and last warning to the whole group. Use the edit feature, you \*will \* get mod killed. This was one. Next time ANYONE uses the edit feature they are out. and after I posted a gender correction for you and everything. I am dissapointed. [/QUOTE] How’s “Because I was irritated enough to post a reply before I saw you’d stepped in, and then figured it was inappropriate after I’d seen your reply?” as an excuse? You must be short on things to be disappointed about, dude. Huh boy. Better toe the line, 'cos we’re losing enough town by our own efforts, the scum and even the vig. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![hocow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hocow/32/4112_2.png) [@hocow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hocow)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565/1840 "2007-04-06T15:51:10Z")
[QUOTE=Aguecheek] Yeah, I do remember it. He said it on post #739…35 posts _after_ you said that. Wanna talk about context, I’d say you should try backchecking yourself first. [/QUOTE] Good catch, **Aguecheek**! I will now request that **MonkeyMensch** explain himself. [QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Does ANYBODY gain by this plan? Why, yes. The MAFIA, since the number of scum potentially killed each cycle goes from 3 to 1. [/QUOTE] Couldn’t the same be said of townies, though? Reading down the thread as I type this, I see that **MadTheSwine** is trying to detract attention from **Suburban Plankton** ’s accusation, and place it on **sturmhawke**. That seems a bit scummy to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=91) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-a-game-part-2-this-time-with-mafia/397565.md?page=93)