# Wesley Clark is soooo busted! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074 "2003-09-27T00:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/81 "2003-09-30T17:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I see that now december is gone the boards are shifting further towards the left. Where’s that smilie for puking your guts out now? Sam ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/82 "2003-09-30T18:11:36Z")
Sorry to interrupt. I came back to see if anyone had posted this, and they had not. [http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60629,00.html](http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60629,00.html) > [@](#): > > “I still believe in e=mc², but I can’t believe that in all of human history, we’ll never ever be able to go beyond the speed of light to reach where we want to go,” said Clark. “I happen to believe that mankind can do it.” > > “I’ve argued with physicists about it, I’ve argued with best friends about it. I just have to believe it. It’s my only faith-based initiative.” Clark’s comment prompted laughter and applause from the gathering. I’ll let you guys get back to your hijack 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/83 "2003-09-30T18:18:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **Don’t be stupid. This isn’t just about George Bush, the whole country is involved and our credibility as well as that of our allies who supported us is also on the line.** No, I’m pretty sure as soon as Bush is out of office, the credibility counter will be reset. \*\* > [@](#): > > A lot of US soldiers and a lot of Iraqi civilians suffered and died and continue to do so because of our action.\*\* _Our_ action? If in _our_ action you mean the war that Bush started, I guess you have a point. \*\* > [@](#): > > Try telling them, it had nothing to do with them. \*\* It didn’t. \*\* > [@](#): > > If you want to sit there and hope that their sacrifice was meaningless and founded on a lie, just because you don’t like Dubya, be my guest, but I think it’s a shitty attituded.\*\* Who said their sacrifice was meaningless? The troops have nothing to do with this, leave them out of it. It’s a shitty attitude to not like Bush because we believe he lied to start a war and may have stirred up a hornet’s nest? Boy, I must try some of that neocrack you are smoking. \*\* > [@](#): > > I **hoped** that Clinton was doing the right thing in Kosovo. I hoped he was doing the right thing when he sent bombs into Iraq. I hoped he wasn’t using these things to distract from a domestic scandal. I thought the people that said he was wagging the dog were worthy of contempt.\*\* Leave Clinton out of this, he was a schmuck in his own right, who the fuck cares? \*\* > [@](#): > > You don’t bet against your county just so that somebody you don’t like will look bad.\*\* Not liking Bush or being against the war = Betting against the country? Yes or no? \*\* > [@](#): > > How about this: Pray they find a whole bunch of WMDs, that we are vindicated, that our servicemen died for something, that the reconstruction goes well, and we achieve piece and stability… And if you don’t like Dubya, vote him out anyway. \*\* Or, how about this? No WMD are found, the WMD charges were discovered to be trumped up, and Bush is voted the fuck out of office. Some new integrity is elected into office and the lessons of the past are applied to the situations of the tomorrow. Our servicemen _still_ died for something, a better future. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/84 "2003-09-30T18:25:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **Don’t be stupid. This isn’t just about George Bush, the whole country is involved and our credibility as well as that of our allies who supported us is also on the line.** No, I’m pretty sure as soon as Bush is out of office, the credibility counter will be reset. \*\* > [@](#): > > A lot of US soldiers and a lot of Iraqi civilians suffered and died and continue to do so because of our action.\*\* _Our_ action? If in _our_ action you mean the war that Bush started, I guess you have a point. \*\* > [@](#): > > Try telling them, it had nothing to do with them. \*\* It didn’t. \*\* > [@](#): > > If you want to sit there and hope that their sacrifice was meaningless and founded on a lie, just because you don’t like Dubya, be my guest, but I think it’s a shitty attituded.\*\* Who said their sacrifice was meaningless? The troops have nothing to do with this, leave them out of it. It’s a shitty attitude to not like Bush because we believe he lied to start a war and may have stirred up a hornet’s nest? Boy, I must try some of that neocrack you are smoking. \*\* > [@](#): > > I **hoped** that Clinton was doing the right thing in Kosovo. I hoped he was doing the right thing when he sent bombs into Iraq. I hoped he wasn’t using these things to distract from a domestic scandal. I thought the people that said he was wagging the dog were worthy of contempt.\*\* Leave Clinton out of this, he was a schmuck in his own right, who the fuck cares? \*\* > [@](#): > > You don’t bet against your county just so that somebody you don’t like will look bad.\*\* Not liking Bush or being against the war = Betting against the country? Yes or no? \*\* > [@](#): > > How about this: Pray they find a whole bunch of WMDs, that we are vindicated, that our servicemen died for something, that the reconstruction goes well, and we achieve piece and stability… And if you don’t like Dubya, vote him out anyway. \*\* Or, how about this? No WMD are found, the WMD charges were discovered to be trumped up, and Bush is voted the fuck out of office. Some new integrity is elected into office and the lessons of the past are applied to the situations of the tomorrow. Our servicemen _still_ died for something, a better future. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/85 "2003-09-30T18:54:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > Our servicemen _still_ died for something, a better future. Too bad they won’t be able to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/86 "2003-09-30T19:37:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Too bad they won’t be able to enjoy it. \*\* Well that goes without saying. The point is, no matter what happens, they’ll have died for _something_ good, or _something_ bad. Only time will tell which one it turns out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/87 "2003-09-30T21:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\ ***Scylla** , I don’t think I or anyone is hoping that Bush is a liar. A lot of us believe the evidence that he’s a liar is very strong; what we’re hoping is that he’s EXPOSED for a liar. \*\* Then why are you taking issue with my statement? It is clearly not addressed to such things. > [@](#): > > I really wish you’d be a little bit less cavalier with the accusations in this thread. Everyone else should be less cavalier, too, but you’re being pretty over-the-top, by suggesting we’re hoping for our country’s embarrassment and failure. I did not make a general indictment of those who oppose the way. I made a specific indictment of a subset of that the group. That’s the third time I’ve clarified that statement of mine, and I stand behind it as I worded it. > [@](#): > > \*\*We’re not hoping for that. That’s already happened. We’re hoping for an END to the embarrassment and failure. > \*\* Yes. And one potential end to that embarassment and failure would be that we actually find what is that Bush said was there in convincing fashion. There are some here and elsewhere that \*\* clearly\*\* would be unhappy with such a result. Such a person is a shithead. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/88 "2003-09-30T22:05:21Z")
No comment on the weapons inspectors being thrown out? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/89 "2003-09-30T22:16:36Z")
> [@](#): > > There are some here and elsewhere that clearly would be unhappy with such a result. Such a person is a shithead. I guess if you are actually an American hoping for a fall in US Diplomatic status can be considered shitheaded. Realistic people have already come to the conclusion that any immediate threat of WMDs was false. We can quibble for years perhaps about programs going on and intentions but the complete lack of evidence to this point indicates nothing was ready to strike in 45 minutes. You may want to wait for thanksgiving but really there should already be some investigation going on the Admins evidence presentations. Shouldn’t Bush et al be getting at least as grilled as Blair? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/90 "2003-09-30T22:33:15Z")
And BTW if those soldiers died to take over a land devoid of WMD and the US Admin is exposed to all the world as a pack of lying warmongers then it won’t have been in vain. Their sacrifice and exposure of truth afterwards may pull American foreign policy from the brink of insanity. Your dream scenario is the first link in a chain of wars. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/91 "2003-09-30T23:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*No comment on the weapons inspectors being thrown out? \*\* My apologies. You were right, I was wrong. I stand corrected, though my error seems to be fairly common. I would have been more impressed had you done without the insulting accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/92 "2003-09-30T23:40:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*I see that now **december** is gone the boards are shifting further towards the left. Now, even **Scylla** is a target. > > _sigh_ > > Democrat Underground, here we come. \*\* :rolleyes: Neocon persecution porn. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/93 "2003-09-30T23:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*:rolleyes: > > Neocon persecution porn. \*\* Actually I am being persecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/94 "2003-09-30T23:56:04Z")
No, your not. You’re getting called on having a position that doesn’t jive with the facts. this is not persecution. Call me when you have numbers tatooed in your arm and elephants burned on your yard. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/95 "2003-10-01T00:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*No, your not. You’re getting called on having a position that doesn’t jive with the facts. this is not persecution. Call me when you have numbers tatooed in your arm and elephants burned on your yard. \*\* Elephants burned on my yard? Don’t get histrionic. Just because I’m not being persecuted like the jews in WWII doesn’t mean I’m not being persecuted. I can give you several examples right here in this thread. 1. When I said Saddam expelled the inspectors I was immediately insulted and called a liar by Demostylus. 2. Tejota called me a liar. 3. People are lying about me. It is being said that I think anybody who criticizes the war is a traitor. This false attribution is being used as an excuse to attack me. Despite the fact that I have clarified my actual position four times the original false attribution is still being used against me. …that’s just the last few posts. So yeah, I **am** being persecuted. Certainly not auschwitz, revoke my civil rights burn a cross in my yard and string me from a tree persecuted, but persecuted nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/96 "2003-10-01T00:15:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by syncrolecyne \* > \*\*I was mainly pitting (not I am not much of a pitter) the tone of Fox and Drudge, like “we really have really got him good now!”. You’d think he was videotaped in a motel room smoking crack with a hooker, as often as they played the video. \*\* Well, if he ever is he can still run for Mayor of Washington DC. \ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Actually I am being persecuted. \*\* Come and see the violence inherent in the message board! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/97 "2003-10-01T00:22:13Z")
Oh and Demostylus said I was incapable of independant thought so maybe I just think I’m persecuted because Debaser told me I am. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/98 "2003-10-01T00:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*\*\*Yes. And one potential end to that embarassment and failure would be that we actually find what is that Bush said was there in convincing fashion. > > There are some here and elsewhere that \*\* clearly\*\* would be unhappy with such a result. Such a person is a shithead. \*\* I find it totally unrealistic to hope that Bush will be vindicated by the facts. It’s like hoping that Saddam Hussein will have a change of heart, confess to the crimes he committed, throw himself on the mercy of the Hague, and promise to spend the rest of his life [knitting sweaters for penguins](http://www.knitting-and.com/knitting/penguinfaq.htm) as penance. And if he DOES somehow have evidence, that’s even worse. It won’t change the fundamental fucked-upedness of how he went about this war – i.e., demanding the rest of the world fall into line even though he presented no good evidence for the need to do so, relying on demonstrably faulty and falsified evidence to make his case, misrepresenting international attitudes to the home audience, and promoting the dangerous doctrine of preemptive strike. As I’ve said before, the cop who plants evidence on a suspect might turn out to have collared the right guy, but that doesn’t make the cop’s actions right. I don’t want his dangerous and corrupt practices to receive any further justification. I consider his foreign policy strategies to be very risky and unwise, and I think it benefits everyone (except him) if they’re thoroughly discredited, so that nobody else will ever use them. For that reason, I’ll be unhappy if he’s able to find any facts that he can twist around into providing support for his methods. However, that’s not my real fear. My real fear is that he’ll trot out something unconvincing, but something that gives him plausible deniability. “Look,” he’ll say, “Here’s a weapons canister with traces of a chemical on it that could be decayed sarin gas! [sub]sure, it could be decayed DDT, but details, details[/sub] We were right to go to war, we protected America from Saddam’s WMDs!” And my fear is that his line will be bought by enough people that his doctrine won’t be discredited, and might be used by future leaders, and might REALLY get our country into trouble next time. To sum up: 1. I don’t think it’s realistic to hope evidence will surface that really vindicates him. 2. I hope evidence doesn’t surface that gives him plausible deniability. 3. I also hope evidence doesn’t surface that seems to provide post-hoc justification for the war, since he’ll almost certainly spin such evidence to provide post-hoc justification for _his foreign policy doctrines_, which are intellectually and morally bankrupt and risky for both our nation and other nations. Sorry if you think that makes me a shithead. Here’s an example of what could surface that would change my mind: -Evidence that Hussein was planning an imminent act that would kill hundreds of thousands of people; COMBINED WITH -Evidence that had Bush revealed this evidence, even more people would have died, COMBINED WITH -An apology from Bush for having to hide this evidence from the rest of the world, coupled with an oath not to use the preemptive-strike doctrine ever again. If that happens, I’ll eat crow. I’ll give him till, let’s say, St. Patrick’s day to provide such evidence. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/99 "2003-10-01T00:27:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*1. When I said Saddam expelled the inspectors I was immediately insulted and called a liar by Demostylus. > > 1. People are lying about me.\*\* See, **Scylla** , this is ironic. You seem to expect people to give you the benefit of the doubt – when you apparently misunderstand what Saddam did, you get angry when people assume you were lying. But when people apparently misunderstand what you’re saying, you assume they’re lying, and extend them no benefit of the doubt whatsoever. Either be a lot less cavalier with accusations of other people lying, or else be a lot more thickskinned when people throw similar accusations at you. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074/100 "2003-10-01T00:56:59Z")
Persecutions, and martyrdom. St. Steven - stoned to death St. Andrew - pierced with arrows St. **Scylla** - hoist on his own petard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark-is-soooo-busted/204074.md?page=6)