# Wesley Clark **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529 "2003-09-09T14:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/141 "2003-09-21T01:04:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*In a job interview for President of a company, which one would you hire? \*\* Bush without question. He is milking money from our poorest customers. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/142 "2003-09-21T04:38:35Z")
I agree that Clark seems supremely qualified. So naturally you’re going to spin this into, “You MUST vote for the most qualified man”, as if the Presidency was like being a CEO of a company. There’s this little matter of ideology. If you don’t believe in the man’s ideas, would you vote for him even if he were a super genius? Newt Gingrich was a very intelligent man. Would you vote for him? I’m not American, but if I were, Clark’s rehashing of the old, “Free Health Care for Everyone” idea would be enough to disqualify him in a normal election, because I think adopting a socialized health care system is a disaster of monumental proportions. Do you know who’s even more qualified than Clark? Dick Cheney. But how many of you would vote for him if he ran for President? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/143 "2003-09-21T04:44:09Z")
Since 1992, every DLC candidate has won the election. A non-DLC Democrat hasn’t won since 1976. Chew on that, Dean, Kerry, and Gephardt fans. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/144 "2003-09-21T13:58:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Sept. 20 — Retired Gen. Wesley Clark may have only entered the presidential race on Thursday, but he is already the Democratic frontrunner, according to a new NEWSWEEK poll. > > CLARK WON SUPPORT from 14 percent registered Democrats and democratic leaners, outpacing former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean (12 percent), Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman (12 percent), Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry (10 percent) and Missouri Congressman Dick Gephardt (8 percent). > [@](#): > > When registered voters were asked who they would vote for if a general election if President George W. Bush was pitted against Clark, Kerry or Dean, none of the candidates were able to beat the incumbent, although Clark fared better than the others, polling at 43 percent to Bush’s 47 percent. Kerry was next, polling at 43 percent to Bush’s 48 percent. Dean fared worst, with Bush beating him by a full 14 points (52 percent to 38 percent). [Newsweek Poll](http://www.msnbc.com/news/969441.asp?0cv=CB10) ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/145 "2003-09-21T18:50:34Z")
I just dropped in to comment on the same poll. Clark has had a rather shaky start but that poll is great news for him. Despite just having entered the race he is within a few points of Bush. At this point that’s amazing considering that there are probably many people who still haven’t heard of Clark. The poll has some pretty bad news for Bush. In the question about re-election Bush it’s 44% yes and 50% no. His job approval ratings are at a shaky 51%. His iraq and economy numbers have also gone down with only 46% approval for the first and 57% disapproval for the second. Not only is Bush beatable, I am begining to think it’s more likely than not that he will be beaten. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/146 "2003-09-22T08:23:07Z")
Hard to say, there is so much that can change between now and election time. I know that’s cliche, but there is just so much on the horizon then there has been for past elections. Elections are likely to take place in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2004. If they go well, that could give Bush a big plus on foreign policy. Obviously, the surprise finding of WMD or Osama would give him a boost. The economy is also a big unknown. If it’s booming by spring 2004 and unemployment is swiftly dropping, he’s in great shape. If it’s the same or worse it probably hurts him. In most previous elections, we already knew the score on the economy. In 1995, we knew Clinton could run on a good economy in 1996, ditto for Reagan in 1984. Likewise, we knew it was crud and likely to stay that way for Carter and Bush I. This economy is hard to figure, so things could change in a big way in mid-2004. Even within the Democratic field, there is so much unknown. There are seven candidates that have at least some chance to win the nomination. I don’t remember ever seeing more than three with a shot at it. That was in 1988 when Gore, Gephardt, and Dukakis were running pretty close for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/147 "2003-09-22T10:34:43Z")
> **[Opinion | Clintons Anoint Clark (Published 2003)](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/22/opinion/clintons-anoint-clark.html)** > > William Safire Op-Ed column says Gen Wesley K Clark was encouraged and helped to declare his candidacy for Democratic presidential nomination by former Pres Bill Clinton and Sen Hillary Rodham Clinton; says Clintons want control of Democratic Party... If this article is true, I’m much less pleased by Clark. It’s an Op-Ed, but I can see it… Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![FoamChomsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@FoamChomsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoamChomsky)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/148 "2003-09-22T10:40:47Z")
Clark has impressive credentials. But this is an embarassment, and will hurt him: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37215-2003Sep19.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37215-2003Sep19.html) ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/149 "2003-09-22T11:16:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/22/opinion/22SAFI.html?ex=1064808000&en=930261d8e68c65bb&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/22/opinion/22SAFI.html?ex=1064808000&en=930261d8e68c65bb&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE) > If this article is true, I’m much less pleased by Clark. It’s an Op-Ed, but I can see it… Anyone? Personally, I think it’s crap. Hillary has said so many times that she will complete her full six year term as Senator that I don’t think she could decide to run in 2004 at this point. When Bill Clinton made a statement leaving the door open to the possibility, Hillary put the kibosh on that and Bill had to come out and reiterate Hillary’s position the next day. I think all this talk about Hillary is just a red herring to paint Clark as a minion doing the work for the Clintons. I’m also not too impressed with an opinion piece that ends with an ad hominem. As for the bit about Clinton “firing” Clark, that is a bit of a over simplification. > [@](#): > > …General Clark was forced to retire early by Pentagon officials who, according to several accounts, tricked President Clinton. > > Members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff told the White House that they had to find a spot for Joe Ralston, a popular Air Force general and right-hand man to William S. Cohen, the secretary of defense. General Ralston had been denied the promotion to chairman of the Joint Chiefs after admitting to adultery 10 years earlier while separated from his wife. > > These members, according to several accounts, told President Clinton that General Clark’s regular tour of duty as NATO supreme allied commander was up and that they wanted General Ralston to succeed him. > > “Clinton signed on, apparently not realizing that he had been snookered,” David Halberstam wrote in his book, “War in a Time of Peace: Bush, Clinton and the Generals” (Scribner, 2001). > > “Clark was devastated by the news, a world-class slap in the face, a public rebuke of almost unparalleled proportions,” Mr. Halberstam wrote. He added that Samuel Berger, Mr. Clinton’s national security adviser, had told General Clark that the Pentagon had fooled the White House. > > General Clark wrote that later, President Clinton had told him privately, “I had nothing to do with it.” [From here.](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLIN.html?ex=1064548800&en=a22c107fd37f03dc&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE) ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/150 "2003-09-22T11:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FoamChomsky \* > Clark has impressive credentials. But this is an embarassment, and will hurt him: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37215-2003Sep19.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37215-2003Sep19.html) Maybe, although Howard Dean certainly has overcome his early gaffes. But Clark does need to be more careful when chatting up reporters on a plane. It will be interesting to see how Clark does in Thursday’s Democratic debate. I wonder if he made a mistake accepting the invitation to the debate so soon after he announced. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/151 "2003-09-22T11:25:32Z")
Keep in mind that Clinton could almost never tell anyone to their face that he had fired them for a good reason. He always said it wasn’t his call, or he really wanted to keep them. That being said, I don’t think the circumstances of Clark’s firing are going to be a campaign issue. What is going to be a campaign issue is his decisions and conduct as a general. What I want to know is if he’s still the hawk that he was in 1998. The way he’s talked, it sounds like he went all dovish lately. A ploy to win the nomination? ---
**Author:** ![FoamChomsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@FoamChomsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoamChomsky)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/152 "2003-09-22T11:34:04Z")
The right’s attack on Clark, beyond exploiting the Iraq flip-flop, will probably follow the lines drawn here by Mark Steyn: > **[Opinion](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/?xml=%2Fopinion%2F2003%2F09%2F21%2Fdo2102.xml)** > > The best opinions, comments and analysis from The Telegraph. > [@](#): > > It is hard to argue that Iraq was a disaster when, in the crappy little war you, General Clark, presided over, the most powerful military on the planet took 78 days of aerial bombardment to destroy just over a dozen tanks; hard to argue that our boys shouldn’t be getting picked off on the ground in Iraq when in your war they stayed up at 15,000 feet, nights only, bombing hospitals, commuter trains, refugee convoys, the Chinese embassy, etc; hard to argue that Iraq wasn’t worth it when, by most accounts, there’s more ethnic cleansing (Muslims against Christians) going on in “liberated” Kosovo than there was in Slobo’s day. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/153 "2003-09-23T04:47:50Z")
A new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll has been released showing Bush slipping and Clark gaining. [CNN – Poll: Bush down, Clark up](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/22/elec04.poll.bush.clark/index.html) [USA Today – Bush’s strength wanes, poll says](http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-22-bush-poll_x.htm) [USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll results](http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2003-09-22-bush-poll.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/154 "2003-09-23T13:43:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rsa \* > \*\*A new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll has been released showing Bush slipping and Clark gaining. Well, just to be explicitly clear, **rsa** it shows head-to-head, Clark presently beating Bush, although still within the margin of error of the sample. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/155 "2003-09-23T14:48:46Z")
Interesting comments in the current AvWeek (subscribers only at the web site, sorry - but click [here](http://www.aviationnow.com/awin/awin_awst/awin_awst_section_story.jsp?issueDate=2003-09-22§ion=Washington+Outlook) if you like): > [@](#): > > Washington Outlook > > Clarke Gets Four-Star Rating, But Not as Nation’s Leader > Aviation Week & Space Technology > 09/22/2003, page 21 > Edited by Frances Fiorino > > NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS > Presidential hopeful Wesley K. Clarke has won the admiration of many for his intellectual capabilities, but some who have served in uniform with him have pronounced reservations about his potential as the nation’s leader. Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper worked daily with Clarke during the Kosovo operation. “I can vouch for his competence as a general,” he said, but avoided additional comment. Another high-ranking Air Force officer said Clarke’s style was to avoid personal involvement until critical situations had turned into concrete problems. He then intervened with a heavy-handed, autocratic and acerbic style. In particular, Clarke alienated many senior European officials, critics said. Air Force Gen. Joseph Ralston was retained past his retirement date to replace Clarke and attempt to mend damaged relations with European allies. During the Kosovo air campaign, Clarke was criticized by airpower advocates for focusing on the tank-plinking count while ignoring strategic targets elsewhere that would have crippled Yugoslav war-making capabilities. I’d be able to take this more seriously if they’d spelled his name right, if any of the derogatory remarks had names next to them, or if they didn’t seem like petty sniping. Food for thought, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/156 "2003-09-23T16:47:46Z")
\*\*During the Kosovo air campaign, Clarke was criticized by airpower advocates for focusing on the tank-plinking count while ignoring strategic targets elsewhere that would have crippled Yugoslav war-making capabilities. \*\* Interesting. I can’t find the cite right now, but I read recently that Clark repeatedly asked the Pentagon for additional targets but getting anything was like pulling teeth. In any case, I see attacks on Clark like this all the time while it is rarely mentioned that his hands were effectively tied by NATO, the Pentagon, and the White House. Most Americans can barely remember that war, so I think that these types of attacks will be pretty ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/157 "2003-09-23T20:44:33Z")
Actually, it’s _because_ most Americans can barely remember Kosovo that the Republican smear campaign stands a pretty good chance of being effective. All they have to do is tell enough lies to make Clark’s competence as a commander an issue, and the damage will have been done. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/158 "2003-09-23T21:07:04Z")
Could Clark turn around the cold relations betweent he democratic party and America’s military which seems to have been in place since Vietnam? Certainly there is no rational reason for antipathy between the two, but reason has little to do with it. It would appear that many soldiers belive that Lefties spit on every soldier they see. Will his statements of wanting to cut the militry budget kill his chances with our soldiers even though he is well respected as a military commander? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/159 "2003-09-23T23:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CTB \* > \*\* Will his statements of wanting to cut the militry budget kill his chances with our soldiers \*\* I would think so, given Bush-in-the-flying-suit. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529/160 "2003-09-24T01:07:48Z")
Actually I think that the thing that will help lefties the most with soldiers is Bush. The whole making reservists stay for an extra year will really hurt him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wesley-clark/200529.md?page=9)