Wesley Clark

Great Debates
81

"Announcing his candidacy in his hometown - Little Rock, Arkansas - he aligned himself with traditional Democratic values, favouring affirmative action, supporting abortion rights and calling for better healthcare.

But he also struck a centrist path, in the tradition of Bill Clinton, another Arkansan, by refusing to join Mr Dean and Richard Gephardt of Missouri, who want to repeal the bulk of Mr Bush’s tax cuts.

“We cannot roll back the tax cuts for ordinary Americans,” he said, although he said it might be necessary to “look at the tax cuts that have gone to the very wealthy Americans”."

cite

82

As far as restricting freedoms goes, it seems to me that the current administration has done a pretty fair job of it. If you are alluding to gun ownership, Gen. Clark notes that he is a hunter and a gun owner that has 20 odd guns at home. As far as the abortion issue goes, well, you’d probably call me a baby killer, but in California at least, you can be pro-choice and still be a Republican. (I might not qualify in certain states, I know.)

83

So, he is going to raise taxes increase spending, and grow the deficit.

Gee, THAT will distinguish him from the rest of the Dems.

Regards,
Shodan

84

One thing simply has to be cleared up.

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/clark-iraq.html

CLARK: “There was a concerted effort during the fall of 2001, starting immediately after 9/11, to pin 9/11 and the terrorism problem on Saddam Hussein.”

RUSSERT: “By who? Who did that?”

CLARK: “Well, it came from the White House, it came from people around the White House. It came from all over. I got a call on 9/11. I was on CNN, and I got a call at my home saying, ‘You got to say this is connected. This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam Hussein.’ I said, ‘But–I’m willing to say it, but what’s your evidence?’ And I never got any evidence.”

Note that these comments were made on June 15th. Does he stand by this? Does he have any reason as to why it took him so long to come forward? And would he rather nail his pecker to a tree than be endorsed by Michael Moore?

And did he actually say (as I heard over wing-nut radio…(don’t ask)…) that he can’t remember who he voted for in 2000?

85

I think they must be increased after the cuts. I also think asking for eight billion for Irag is increasing spending. The deficit has certainly grown.

86

Snake Legs, I meant to say that if someone if strongly anti-abortion, then Clark would be a non-starter. But I am curious about your comment about restricting freedoms. Is it the gun issue that you are referring to or something else? He seems quite gun friendly, so unless you have a hard-on for assault weapons I don’t see the problem. The reason I support Clark is because I think it is Bush that is restricting our freedoms more than any other president that I can remember.

87

This thread seems to be largely opinion, rather than debate, so I’ll ask the following: Is it me or does Clark’s voice sound exactly like the actor Robert Fuller (remember “Emergency”?)?

He was talking this morning on TV and I had to come from the other room to see if it was the actor.

88

Shodan, do you have something useful to say or you just going to be the the resident spinmeister?

89

elucidator, I have heard that statement from a number of places (I think, but perhaps they all originated from the same interview). In any case, Clark was a paid military commentor for CNN. Considering that, I don’t think that it would be prudent :wink: for him to be attacking Bush at that time while he was expected to unbiased.

Regarding Michael Moore, I was impressed that Moore actually sounded reasonable when discussing Clark. That’s something, don’t you think?

90

By the way, the administration says that they never contacted Clark on 9/11, and Clark has not offered any evidence to back this up. This statement could come back to haunt him unless he can name names.

The dirt on Clark is already coming out (and I don’t dislike the guy - I thought he was pretty level headed in his Iraq commentary during the war - much more so than some of the other ex-generals).

But two of the charges against his conduct in Kosovo should give Democrats pause - he comes across as a bit of a careless cowboy. In one case, when the Russians occupied Pristina airport that he planned on occupying, he ordered British General Michael Jackson to storm the airport. The General refused, saying, “I’m not going to start WWIII for you.”

Apparently, he was also criticised by fighter pilots who claim that he ordered them to bomb from high altitudes for their safety, at the expense of greater civilian casualties.

Here’s an article from, of all places, AntiWar.com that documents some of this, plus some more lurid charges. I won’t vouch for their accuracy, but I have seen the airport incident mentioned in the mainstream media as well, such as this cite at ITV.

And here’s another vicious article about him at Counterpunch. Again, I won’t verify that these sources are accurate, as I’ve had plenty of problems with their accuracy in the past.

But this underscores Clark’s biggest problem - The far left HATES him. He’s going to have a hell of a time attracting the Democratic base, especially starting this late in the campaign. So he has to appeal to moderate Democrats, moderate Republicans, and independents. But those are the people who are going to be hardest to attract away from Bush. And they are pretty skeptical as well. Here’s an unflattering article at National Review, which pretty much matches what was said on the left sites, except that NR gives him a little more credit for his military achievements.

According to this article, he was not much liked in the military by his superiors or his subordinates, and they imply that he basically ‘retired’ at 55 because he screwed up his NATO command, lost a showdown with the British General, and was eased out of the military.

91

I was under the impression that he left the NATO command because the Brits refused to take the airport before the Russians.

Started to drive down and see him today, but didn’t get away from work. Do you get SS protection as a party candidate?

92

Translation: USAF aircraft operated above effective range of most anti-aircraft fire just as they did in Iraq. I highly doubt many pilots lost any sleep over this consideration for their safety and it comes across as nothing so much as looking to smear, and any possible smear will do. If he had ordered them to conduct lowlevel raids allowing better visual identification of targets he’d now be accused of needlessly exposing pilots to danger and not utilising his technological advantage. Fly high, fly low, it really doesn’t matter when the true aim is a low blow.

More he is seen as representative in some corners of NATO policy they disliked. Real deep visceral hatred of the left is for George Bush, beast from the pit. Nothing matters as much as beating him. The left will prefer Dean but vote for Clark. Or me. Maybe even you. Anybody but Bush. Except Lieberman.

93

Sam, regarding your comments on the Right / Proto and/or Neo-conservatives / Bushites starting to dig up dirt on LTG Clark, I had the misfortune to be in a place where The Murdoch Network News was on during General Clark’s announcement. It was amasing. There was a consiterable editorial before the announcement in which the photogenic talking head repeatedly told us that General Clark was opposed to “Operation Iraqi Freedom,” (apparently there was no invasion of Iraq, there was a “Freedom Operation”), and that he was “fired” as NATO CinC. The “we report you decide boys” then broke into the speech to give us man-in-the-street sound bites from a studio audience. Their primary reaction to a speech that was not completed and which Rupert’s boys were apparently not about to broadcast, was essentially “he ain’t showed me nothing.”

There was, of course nothing about being number one in his West Point class, being a Rhodes scholar in economics, his Purple Heart or the Silver Star ( yes, I know that the Bronze Star without “V” device was pretty well the captain’s good conduct metal, but I also know that a guy has to do something pretty impressive to get the Silver Star), or what is involved in becoming a three star general officer, even if you were captain of cadets.

I assume that the gloves are off now. I can hardly wait until Secretary Rumsfeld decides to brand him a “TV General” again, or the President decides to grand stand in a quasi-uniform.

Incidentally, does anybody know what the relationship between Wes Clark and Collin Powell is?

94

They’re lovers.

95

Grow the deficit?? You are saying that a dem is going to grow the deficit? have you looked at it lately? Next year it’s calculated to be hak a trillion dollars. That’s trillion with a T.

Who got us there may I ask?

The democrats?

Give me a frigging break.

96

I don’t know how I stack up as a lefty (far left? medium left? medium rare left? centerfield?) but I’m starting to like this guy. Of course, I’d vote for any of the Dem 10 next year if they won the nomination, except Sharpton. Including Lieberman.

But Clark can apparently stir a crowd, and that’s important. Much as I like Gephardt, I’ve got to admit his lack of charisma is a serious problem. And even the Dems who supposedly had star quality, Kerry and Edwards, haven’t been able to do much with it this year.

Most of all, though, Clark seems to put a premium on asking the right questions. And from my perspective, that’s a hell of a lot better than pretending to have all the answers.

97

Not really. The far left is going to criticize anyone besides Kucinich. The people they hate are the people who were pro-war and they really hate Lieberman.

I think that Clark’s main problem is that he wont be able to cut into Dean’s support. He draws equally from all the candidates and Dean still has his momentum getting +3 in NH after all of the attacks.

So, I’d say Clark’s main weakness is the fact that it will be incredibly hard for anyone to stop Dean. Heck, Clark helps Dean on his weakest point. The two are too complimentary and Clark started later and most people consider domestic issues to rule the day.

98

I’d agree that he can complement Dean, because I’m just not sure Clark’s the right man on the domestic side.

Sure. Good with the military. Good morals. Talks straight. But I’m not any too sure I want to vote for a soldier. Especially one who’s never held an elected position before.

99

“Clark is a big believer in tax cuts as an economic-growth tool, only his tax cuts would be far more directed to the middle and working classes – ‘the people who actually need tax cuts and will spend it.” From www.meetclark.com

"I don’t like the path that we’re on. I think we needed a tax cut to stimulate demand, but the tax cut we got is inefficient, that is to say, it didn’t get much stimulus out a huge tax package. It’s unfair – it gave the majority of the benefits to the people who have the most already. We should have given them to the ordinary people, the working people who need the money desperately… [It’s] irresponsible to borrow money to give tax cuts to wealthy people.” From www.meetclark.com

I don’t know about you, but I liked the Republicans better when they were for a balanced budget, for reducing the deficit, and for reducing the size of government. The current “borrow and spend” mentality is much, much worse than the old Democrat “tax and spend” mentality. You can always reduce taxes in the future. Once you owe a bunch of money to the world, you need to pay it back. I liked it better when a Republican could mention the deficit with a straight face, and without the Democrats splorting coffee in response. YMMV.

100

A point that I don’t see raised often is that it’s not merely Bush we intend to get rid of, but Ashcroft, Cheney and Rumsfeld as well. I’ll work like hell to elect Dean and I’ll settle for Clark if I have to, but the Bush administration is a cancer that is eating our nation alive, and if we don’t cut it out before it metastasizes it will kill us.