# West Point Story: Fact or Fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 15, 2001, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439 "2001-08-15T20:21:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/41 "2011-12-08T23:27:16Z")
I can’t speak for West Point lecturers. But generally cold-war era military planners, strategists, etc. generally LOVED the Arab-Israeli wars. They were pretty much considered a dry run for the ground war in Europe should WW3 have broken out, as they were one of the few occasions where Soviet built equipment faced US built equipment in a conventional large scale war. So they were endlessly analyzed and studied. Given that I find that story EXTREMELY unlikely. And certainly there is nothing particularly miraculous about the end results of those wars, they might not have the result a casual observer would have expected, but that doesn’t mean the only conclusion is divine intervention. And as plenty of posters have pointed out: The Roman-Jewish wars ended VERY badly for the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/42 "2011-12-09T00:24:30Z")
Wasn’t the 1973 War studied intently, in addition to the use of technology mentioned above, for the tactics of General Sharon in the Sinai? ---
**Author:** ![Snead15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Snead15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snead15)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/43 "2011-12-09T08:41:52Z")
I cant believe no one with a Biblical background has responded to this yet. Ill do the Honors. The people of the Jewish faith and Christians believe in YHWH the obe true God whose name cannot be said. Muslims worship the moon god. Muslims and Jews have a common ancestor- Abraham. However he is not mentioned until Genesis 11. Now between the first verse of the Bible and the 11th chapter how was there religion? This era is pre flood. There is overwhelming evidence of the Biblical flood today just look at sefiment layers in the desert! If your open minded and truly think to yourself would man tell stories for fin or history or both? The n the Greek myths and Oriental myths fit in this time period African myths as well all covetef by one terminologu. Neophilm to explain yhe phenomena… Which is topic covered in the Bible. Now that I have your attention the Bible often mentions Gods wrath and how the Jews will be forsaken if they do not follow the law. Many lessons and prophecies are fulfilled through the Jewish people and dobt just thinl Curly haired tannish whites are Jews. Most of those are Ziobists whoch is a seperate chapter of Judaism in itself. But the Jews ave been punished for going against Gods word and not accepting the Messiah Jesus of Nazereth. The Holocaust could eben be interpreted in Isaiah 22 and 24. And 65:3. Jeremiah 48:35-38 explains Moabite sympathizer punishment. (sound familiar) ---
**Author:** ![Snead15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Snead15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snead15)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/44 "2011-12-09T08:49:11Z")
Jetemiah 50:31- 46 explains the region. The Ark of The covenant did exist and is probably why West Point wouldnt acknowledge it. Because they know. As for those who say God does not punish you are fools. As for those who say everyone believes in a force. That may be true and the instructions given to reach that force may be different. HoweverI may be wrong vut I was told God does not hold those who havent heard the message acvountable only those who reject his son. Because John 3:16 is basically Salvation in a nutshell. The religions are various guidelines with customs that have changed. Its not religion that saves you its faith by grace. ---
**Author:** ![Snead15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Snead15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snead15)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/45 "2011-12-09T08:51:43Z")
Sorry for the spelling errors. Touchscreen phone. ---
**Author:** ![Snead15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Snead15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snead15)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/46 "2011-12-09T08:58:09Z")
> [@Lizard](#): > > Actually, nobody here has asked the obvious question: how did Israel, a nation in existence for less than 25 years (at the times of the modern wars in question) and populated largely by refugees, attain this level af martial skill? > I’d like an answer to THAT question. Exactly! Isreal was filled with Zionists and the prophecy of them becoming a nation was fulfilled. Only explanation Is Divine Intervention. Prayers being answered. Isaiah 41:10. Now I myself am knowledgeable not really uber religious just not ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Snead15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Snead15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snead15)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/47 "2011-12-09T09:00:38Z")
I actually just interviewed with the setvice academy board to study Military strategy at The Air Force Academy or West Point. I found this page through a google search. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/48 "2011-12-09T09:12:13Z")
> [@Snead15](#): > > There is overwhelming evidence of the Biblical flood today just look at sefiment layers in the desert! Buddy are you ever on the wrong messageboard. Just thinking about it makes me all sefimental. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/49 "2011-12-09T09:21:28Z")
See what you started, **Lust4Life**?:mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/50 "2011-12-09T12:25:09Z")
> [@Snead15](#): > > Muslims worship the moon god. Nah. This is simply anti-Muslim rhetoric dreamed up by a few Christians with an axe to grind that played games with language to invent this story. Muslims certainly worship the same God that Jews do, (and Christians when the Jews and Muslims can get past the odd notion of trinity that Christians hold). > [@Snead15](#): > > There is overwhelming evidence of the Biblical flood today just look at sefiment layers in the desert! There is actually overwhelming evidence that no world-wide flood has ever occurred, although regional floods were probably sufficiently common in Mesopotamia to set the stage for various tales of a world-wide flood in cultures originating in that region. It is not true that all cultures have flood tales. It is true that a very large number of cultures that are located in floodable lands have such tales. > [@Snead15](#): > > Now that I have your attention. . . . Probably not in the way that you hope. > [@Snead15](#): > > But the Jews ave been punished for going against Gods word and not accepting the Messiah Jesus of Nazereth. There may be religious reasons for you to believe this, but they are not appropriate to this thread. If you wish to discuss this, consider opening a new thread, preferably in [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=7), which is where religious battles (and witnessing) are conducted. [Great Debates Moderator, not posting as a Mod] ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/51 "2011-12-09T13:34:11Z")
> [@Snead15](#): > > As for those who say God does not punish you are fools. :rolleyes: [QUOTE=Snead15] God does not hold those who havent heard the message acvountable only those who reject his son. [/QUOTE] So… if you proselytise you therefore condemn a number of those listening to God’s punishment, who would otherwise have escaped such punishment. Proselytising must be a bad idea, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/52 "2011-12-10T04:32:19Z")
> [@Snead15](#): > > Sorry for the spelling errors. Touchscreen phone. No need to explain, we can see that you are touched. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/53 "2011-12-10T04:53:42Z")
> [@Papermache\_Prince](#): > > What’s the mystery? > > Experienced, competent soldiers (among many other career types, of course) emigrated to Israel. Israel received heavy subsidies from the United States (so they’d buy American arms). Before 1973, Israel received fairly small amounts of US aid - on the order of maybe 100M annually, mostly loans. (see [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf)) > [@](#): > > And I’m sure that the knowledge that your neighbors want to destroy you utterly is highly motivating. Quite. On edit: ah I see. Zombie thread. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![gitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9fc348/32.png) [@gitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/54 "2014-02-26T12:05:48Z")
I have seen various versions of this story. I actually asked Rabbi Wade if the story is true. He said that some of the versions have added some details, but essentially, the part about their not teaching about Israeli wars because there is no logical reason for Israel to have won them is true. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/55 "2014-02-26T12:31:07Z")
Here we go again… ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/56 "2014-02-26T12:35:19Z")
> [@gitel](#): > > I have seen various versions of this story. I actually asked Rabbi Wade if the story is true. He said that some of the versions have added some details, but essentially, the part about their not teaching about Israeli wars because there is no logical reason for Israel to have won them is true. Where do you people come from? You re-zombied an already zombied thread to say that this obviously bullshit story is mostly fact?? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/57 "2014-02-26T12:46:42Z")
> [@gitel](#): > > I have seen various versions of this story. I actually asked Rabbi Wade if the story is true. He said that some of the versions have added some details, but essentially, the part about their not teaching about Israeli wars because there is no logical reason for Israel to have won them is true. Given that the posters _thirteen years ago_ were able to establish that the fundamental conceit of this story is true, we are left with the following possibilities in light of your claim; - You are mistaken or being untruthful - Rabbi Wade is mistaken or being untruthful - West Point is engaged in a conspiracy to convince people that they study the Arab-Israeli wars, even though they actually don’t study the Arab-Israeli wars, because any study would prove that they were won solely by divine intervention even though that’s not what the studies say I’m going to wager that Option #3 isn’t the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/58 "2014-02-26T13:42:12Z")
I know I’m something of a crank about spelling, but this whole thread is full of typos and/or misspellings, from 2001 to 2011 at least. Let’s not degenerate into Yahoo Answers or YouTube commentary, people. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/59 "2014-02-26T15:18:07Z")
No u. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439/60 "2014-02-26T15:30:29Z")
I would say that, at least for the wars of ancient times, the only (or at least most reliable) records we have of those wars were written by people who believed that God won the wars for the Jews (or, better put, helped ensure the Jews won). And there are two possible takes on that: 1. It’s the truth. In that case, the most helpful thing we can learn from them to teach American soldiers would be the proper way to request a miracle on your behalf. 2. It’s not the truth, in which case the remainder of what they report is of questionable accuracy (as the military details were not, in their view, the important part of the story), and so basically useless. So the Army has Chaplains to call on God for aid, and otherwise devotes their effort to helping themselves, because if God is real those are the people he reportedly helps, and if he isn’t then you can’t rely on him to save your ass. I guess what I’m saying is that there might be a glimmer of truth behind this story, and the conversation might just have taken place where an instructor told a cadet, candidly and in private, that they didn’t study the ancient wars of the Jews because “apparently God won them for you”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-point-story-fact-or-fiction/76439.md?page=4)