# West Virginia: does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555 "2008-05-08T13:44:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/161 "2008-05-20T19:27:35Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Check your interstices and penumbras. It must have been in those. [/QUOTE] Is that an interstice in your pocket, or are you glad to see me? šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/162 "2008-05-20T19:30:49Z")
The trick is we do not know how pervasive the racism is and how it will manifest itself in the election. WV just gives me an uncomfortable feeling. The differences between Hillary and Barack are not all that great. To have an overwhelming defeat of Obama worries me. I fear we have a lot of racism to deal with in our country. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/163 "2008-05-21T03:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=Gozu] [Quote=ElvisL1ves] I still support HRC. [/quote] [/QUOTE] Yā€™know, Iā€™ve searched on the posts of **ElvisL1ves** in **GD** and the **Pit** over the last few weeks and I cannot find any place where he made the statement that you put into a quote box. We take a very dim view of people messing around with the quote tags. If you have a source for that ā€œquote,ā€ please provide it. Otherwise, refrain from using the quote tags to create a quote for another poster to have submitted. = = = [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] . . . we both know you made that one up. In case you want to falsify something else in the future, . . . [/QUOTE] If you feel that someone has posted inaccurate information about you in **GD** , use the Report button DO NOT accuse another poster of lying in **GD**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/164 "2008-05-22T17:08:53Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The trick is we do not know how pervasive the racism is and how it will manifest itself in the election. WV just gives me an uncomfortable feeling. The differences between Hillary and Barack are not all that great. To have an overwhelming defeat of Obama worries me. I fear we have a lot of racism to deal with in our country. [/QUOTE] Two questions: 1. Are the 67% of West Virginia Democrats who voted for Hillary more or less racist then the 95% of the blacks nationally who vote for Obama? After all, if there isnā€™t much difference between the two, then how can 95% of blacks justify their votes? 1. Could it be possible that if West Virginia had a significant black population, that the numbers would have looked like PAā€™s? Why donā€™t we hear about racist white PAians? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/165 "2008-05-22T17:37:26Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] Why donā€™t we hear about racist white PAians? [/QUOTE] Because [there arenā€™t any](http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/northeast-hate-groups.htm#Pennsylvania), silly. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/166 "2008-05-23T01:36:28Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] Two questions: 1. Are the 67% of West Virginia Democrats who voted for Hillary more or less racist then the 95% of the blacks nationally who vote for Obama? After all, if there isnā€™t much difference between the two, then how can 95% of blacks justify their votes? [/quote] Because thereā€™s a big difference between wanting one of your own kind to be President **once** , and wanting one of your own kind to be President **every single time** , without exception. > [@](#): > > 1. Could it be possible that if West Virginia had a significant black population, that the numbers would have looked like PAā€™s? Theyā€™d also need a couple of big cities, a much larger college-educated population, etc., etc. > [@](#): > > Why donā€™t we hear about racist white PAians? We did - but not nearly to the same extent, because they were much less of a factor in PA than in WV. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/167 "2008-05-25T20:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Funny thing. Teams that donā€™t make it into the play-offs have no chance of scoring any baskets in the championship series. [/quote] You seem to be under the illusion, a common one to be sure among your faction, that the general-election ā€œgameā€ is the \*same \* game as the primary one. It ainā€™t. The electorate is different, the rules are different, the winning strategies are different, the importance of the result is \*completely \* different. To claim as you do that the winner of one is best positioned to win the next, as is the case in sports, is simply ignorant. The GOP has understood for a long time that only winning the most electoral votes matters - if you donā€™t, it donā€™t mean shit. They have chosen candidates and strategies based on the desired end result, and worked from there. Most of the time, it has worked, too. They have not had this strange idea that selecting the candidate who happened to meet their own particular standards for purity gave them the best chance of winning among people who donā€™t share those standards. Do you really want to go wandering around in bewilderment in November wondering what wen wrong _yet again_? Or do you actually see some value in understanding what went wrong for Kerry or Gore or Dukakis or Mondale or McGovern? Could it be that what went wrong for when it mattered was choosing the wrong candidate in the primaries, for the wrong reasons? The blame for that, as you may have gathered, has been attributable to people like you. Iā€™m sick of Republican administrations. Maybe, sharing as you obviously do the Pubsā€™ passion for hating the Clintons as your highest priority, you instead would be happy with yet another one. Meanwhile, the country will pay the heavy cost for indulging the irresponsibility and naivete of those of you who do. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/168 "2008-05-25T20:28:00Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] You seem to be under the illusion, a common one to be sure among your faction, that the general-election ā€œgameā€ is the \*same \* game as the primary one. It ainā€™t. The electorate is different, the rules are different, the winning strategies are different, the importance of the result is \*completely \* different. To claim as you do that the winner of one is best positioned to win the next, as is the case in sports, is simply ignorant. [/quote] No, heā€™s being quite accurate. Heā€™s not saying whether theyā€™re the same game or a different one. What heā€™s saying is that, _if you donā€™t win, you donā€™t advance_. Period. > [@](#): > > The GOP has understood for a long time that only winning the most electoral votes matters - if you donā€™t, it donā€™t mean shit. Nobody else figured that out, but they did. That explains their electoral dominance. > [@](#): > > They have chosen candidates and strategies based on the desired end result, and worked from there. Most of the time, it has worked, too. Uhhuh. I remember a week or so before the 2000 election, when they were anticipating winning the popular vote, and losing the EC. It was purely a fluke that it turned out the other way around. I also remember 2004, when Bush won the popular vote by a few million votes, but if less than 19,000 people in three states had flipped from Bush to Kerry, the election would have been decided by the House. On the whole, I see no basis for believing that the GOP either has a stronger focus on the EC than the Dems do, or that they have used such a focus to their advantage. > [@](#): > > Could it be that what went wrong for when it mattered was choosing the wrong candidate in the primaries, for the wrong reasons? The blame for that, as you may have gathered, has been attributable to people like you. > > Iā€™m sick of Republican administrations. Maybe, sharing as you obviously do the Pubsā€™ passion for hating the Clintons as your highest priority, you instead would be happy with yet another one. Meanwhile, the country will pay the heavy cost for indulging the irresponsibility and naivete of those of you who do. Thatā€™s right, **DSeid** , itā€™s _all your fault!_ Seriously, **Elvis** , your argument for choosing Clinton over Obama sounds a lot like the argument for choosing Kerry over Dean in 2004: Kerry was supposed to be different from the McGoverns and Dukakises, while Dean was just going to take us right down that road again. Iā€™d say youā€™re the one whoā€™s falling into the same trap: _look at the map! Sheā€™s electable!_ while not realizing that the support that map is based on is completely transitory. Hell, sheā€™s shot herself in the foot enough times, just in the past week, to give the GOP plenty of ammunition. RFK and Zimbabwe, indeed. Obamaā€™s been a gentleman about it, because he needs her supporters. The GOP wouldnā€™t be; theyā€™d tear her to shreds. Lucky for your illusions that theyā€™ll never get the chance. As **DSeid** said, if you donā€™t win the preliminary round, you donā€™t advance. Clinton will get **zero** electoral votes this fall. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/169 "2008-05-25T20:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Thatā€™s right, **DSeid** , itā€™s _all your fault!_ [/QUOTE] Iā€™m a married man. Iā€™ve long ago learned that everything is all my fault, and my fault for for not knowing why itā€™s my fault too! Glad to hear that **Elvis** is > [@](#): > > sick of Republican administrations and hope that such disgust will allow those like him to help fight the battle from here together. No matter they may think of people like me. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/170 "2008-05-25T20:57:36Z")
You still have not gotten the point that you have been working \*against \* that goal, so gleefully and energetically that your claim to commitment to it is not credible. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/171 "2008-05-25T21:02:51Z")
And **RTF** , youā€™ve had it explained to you before. You have to do your part too, ya know. I know this incessant talk about this Electoral College thing frustrates you badly, but you really do have to learn about it, or else join **DSeid** in bewilderment next November. But, since your primary goal is defeating _Clinton_, not McCain, no matter the consequences to the nation, perhaps that doesnā€™t matter to you either. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/172 "2008-05-25T22:18:36Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Iā€™m a married man. Iā€™ve long ago learned that everything is all my fault, and my fault for for not knowing why itā€™s my fault too! [/QUOTE] Yes! Itā€™s my fault too, itā€™s [all our faults!](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/25/161754/320/126/522630) ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/173 "2008-05-25T22:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] \ But, since your primary goal is defeating _Clinton_, not McCainā€¦ [/QUOTE] The primary goal was defeating Clinton. The _general_ goal is to defeat McCain. šŸ†’ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/174 "2008-05-25T23:50:28Z")
Well some apparently believe that [Obama can beat McCain.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=469379) šŸ™‚ Me, Iā€™ll hold off for while. It is a long way until election day. The various predictors of electoral vote outcome will flip many times between now and then, come up during the Democratic Convention, reverse during the Republican one. It will be an exciting and interesting few months. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/175 "2008-05-26T13:03:39Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Yes! Itā€™s my fault too, itā€™s [all our faults!](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/25/161754/320/126/522630) [/QUOTE] Nice find! I donā€™t read many Kos diaries, but that was a _great_ one! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/176 "2008-05-26T13:20:10Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] And **RTF** , youā€™ve had it explained to you before. You have to do your part too, ya know. I know this incessant talk about this Electoral College thing frustrates you badly, but you really do have to learn about it, or else join **DSeid** in bewilderment next November. [/quote] If your argument that Clinton is better suited than Obama to beat McCain is all about the EC map, I think Iā€™ve already rebutted every point youā€™ve made. The GOP hasnā€™t been winning recent elections because of a better grasp of the EC map than the Dems, as I explained in more detail in my last post before this one. And as I and others have pointed out to you elsewhere in this thread, Hillaryā€™s apparently greater EC advantage over McCain is a development of the past several weeks rather than a demonstrably enduring difference, and thereā€™s no reason to believe it wouldnā€™t vanish ā€œlike ice in a drink, invisible ink, or dreams in the cold light of day,ā€ as the Rutles once sang, once the GOP smear-and-innuendo machine was focused on her, rather than Obama. > [@](#): > > But, since your primary goal is defeating _Clinton_, not McCain, Well, of course - itā€™s the _primaries_. Duh. My _primary_ goal is defeating Clinton, not just because I find her proposed policies on everything but health care to either be equivalent to or inferior to Obamaā€™s proposals, but in recent weeks, sheā€™s turned into a gaffe-prone candidate (RFK, Zimbabwe, etc.) that the GOP will shred to pieces when sheā€™s equally clumsy in the general election. My _general election_ goal is defeating McCain, and enlarging our Congressional majorities to Blue Dog-proof and nearer to filibuster-proof majorities. As Iā€™ve just indicated, I see a potential Hillary nomination as being detrimental in this regard. > [@](#): > > no matter the consequences to the nation, perhaps that doesnā€™t matter to you either. The problem is, I donā€™t buy your claim that defeating Clinton in the primaries would have noticeable consequences to the nation. AFAICT, you havenā€™t convinced anyone but yourself of these consequences. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/177 "2008-05-26T13:51:39Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I think Iā€™ve already rebutted every point youā€™ve made. [/quote] Denial is \*not \* a synonym for rebuttal. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > My _general election_ goal is defeating McCain 'Tis a pity you still donā€™t see that thatā€™s the \*only \* goal, and accomplishing it merely \*starts \* with the primaries. The Dems keep making that same mistake every four years. > [@](#): > > The problem is, I donā€™t buy your claim that defeating Clinton in the primaries would have noticeable consequences to the nation. AFAICT, you havenā€™t convinced anyone but yourself of these consequences. Horse, water. :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555/178 "2008-05-26T14:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Denial is \*not \* a synonym for rebuttal. :rolleyes: [/quote] OK, here was the most recent instance of ā€˜denialā€™: > [@RTFirefly](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > They have chosen candidates and strategies based on the desired end result, and worked from there. Most of the time, it has worked, too. > > Uhhuh. I remember a week or so before the 2000 election, when they were anticipating winning the popular vote, and losing the EC. It was purely a fluke that it turned out the other way around. > > I also remember 2004, when Bush won the popular vote by a few million votes, but if less than 19,000 people in three states had flipped from Bush to Kerry, the election would have been decided by the House. > > On the whole, I see no basis for believing that the GOP either has a stronger focus on the EC than the Dems do, or that they have used such a focus to their advantage. I suppose I could have added the results of 1980, 1984, and 1988, when the GOPā€™s EC advantage was based on hefty popular-vote advantages, and Bill Clintonā€™s hefty EC wins that were based on more middlinā€™ popular-vote margins. Or we could even go back as far as Carter, whose 1976 popular-vote margin was narrower than Bushā€™s in 2004, but whose EC win was by a larger margin than Bushā€™s in 2004. Call that ā€˜denialā€™ if you want. There ainā€™t nothinā€™ there. > [@](#): > > 'Tis a pity you still donā€™t see that thatā€™s the only goal, and accomplishing it merely starts with the primaries. The Dems keep making that same mistake every four years. What mistake are we talking about this time? You _were_ just talking about the Demsā€™ lack of appreciation of the EC map being the big mistake; now itā€™s something to do with the primaries - and in the past, weā€™ve rarely had much idea of the differing candidatesā€™ EC prospects while the nomination race was still alive and kicking. So you must be talking about something else now. But I canā€™t figure out what. [So Iā€™ve asked the question in a new thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=469433), which will give you an opportunity, if you wish, to pull together the mistakes you may have mentioned in scattered places in this and other threads, but I canā€™t recall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-does-it-matter/448555.md?page=8)