# West Virginia public schools sued over Bible classes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342 "2017-02-08T18:57:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/1 "2017-02-08T18:57:18Z")
Article [here.](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/ar-AAmJ1dk?li=BBnb7Kz) > [@](#): > > For nearly 80 years, Bible stories have been taught in Mercer County as part of the regular school week and they’re extremely popular in the community. In a new lawsuit, however, a major lobby for the separation of church and state is arguing that “popular” is not the same as “legal,” reports CBS News correspondent Tony Dokoupil…The school portion of that circle is provided by a program called “Bible in the Schools.” > “Is it a religious course?” Dokoupil asked. > “It’s the Bible,” Thomas replied. > “Is that a yes?” Dokoupil asked. > “I would say it is the Bible. It doesn’t teach one religion. It’s not a Baptist Bible, it’s not a Presbyterian Bible; it’s the Bible, and it is God.”Created by volunteers in 1939, the program now provides more than 4,000 kids a weekly course of Bible study. I like that-it’s open to all…all Christians, that is. :rolleyes: It’s “opt-out” if you don’t want to take the course during school hours, not “opt-in” if you do, and with 96% of the students taking the class, anyone daring to “opt-out” is likely in for some shunning. > [@](#): > > Deal moved her daughter, Sophie, out of the school system after she was bullied for opting out. > “They taunted her about it. They told her that she was going to hell, that I was going to hell, that her father was going to hell,” Deal said. > “How did you feel when you heard that story?” Dokoupil asked. > “It was very hurtful of course because she is my daughter and I don’t want her to hurt,” Deal said. Is this what people who want to eliminate the Dept. of Education have in mind when they talk about returning to “local control”-the right to discriminate against religions other than their own in the public school system? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/2 "2017-02-08T19:12:29Z")
To answer your last question, yes. “School choice” is usually about one of two things; avoiding minorities or gettin’ religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/3 "2017-02-08T19:40:23Z")
I don’t think ED is heavily involved in setting curricula, so their relevance here isn’t clear to me. > [@RickJay](#): > > To answer your last question, yes. > > “School choice” is usually about one of two things; avoiding minorities or gettin’ religion. My experience is restricted to DC charter schools, which are secular and have a greater share of minority students than the rest of the public schools. Is that atypical? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/4 "2017-02-08T19:51:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this what people who want to eliminate the Dept. of Education have in mind when they talk about returning to “local control”-the right to discriminate against religions other than their own in the public school system? It’s not what I mean when I talk about that. You don’t need a department of education to enforce the 1st amendment in local schools. For instance, what role is the DoE playing in this particular case? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/5 "2017-02-08T20:19:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not what I mean when I talk about that. You don’t need a department of education to enforce the 1st amendment in local schools. For instance, what role is the DoE playing in this particular case? Right now the DOE isn’t doing anything at all, and I doubt that under the current Administration they are even considering doing anything. [Here is a more comprehensive view of what’s going on](https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/28434-ffrf-parent-sue-to-end-75-years-of-bible-classes-in-mercer-county-w-va) from the FFRF website. > [@](#): > > The bible instruction, taught by itinerant teachers who possess “a degree in Bible,” begins in first grade. Classes are held in 15 elementary schools, one intermediate school and three middle schools. The classes meet weekly and last 30 minutes in elementary schools and 45 minutes in middle schools. And lest there is any doubt that this goes beyond mere teaching Biblical history > [@](#): > > Financing is provided by the “Bluefield Bible Study Fund, Inc.,” which operates a fund to pay bible teachers to instruct about 4,000 students. Bible teachers must follow lesson plans almost without deviation. There are 70 to 90 visuals used in each lesson. Lessons have included images of Jesus being tortured, nailed to the cross, and ascending into heaven. > The curriculum is the equivalent of sectarian Sunday school instruction. Goals include developing a “positive attitude” toward biblical literature, “understanding the importance of the Ten Commandments,” and “harmonizing the four gospel accounts of the last days of Jesus.” and > [@](#): > > FFRF’s legal complaint lists examples of the proselytizing curriculum. Lesson 2 promotes creationism by claiming humans and dinosaurs co-existed. Students are asked to “picture Adam being able to crawl up on the back of a dinosaur! He and Eve could have their own personal water slide! Wouldn’t that be so wild!” > Lesson 6 exhorts students to follow the Ten Commandments and to “have no other god than the Lord God!” Lesson 25 indoctrinates young students in the core narrative of Christianity — the alleged crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus This is nothing more than Evangelical Christian Sunday School. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/6 "2017-02-08T20:22:57Z")
How the hell has this been going on since 1939, without anyone saying anything? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/7 "2017-02-08T20:24:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Right now the DOE isn’t doing anything at all, and I doubt that under the current Administration they are even considering doing anything. Nor has any administration since the creation of the department, it would appear. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/8 "2017-02-08T20:27:50Z")
What authority does the federal Department of Education have with respect to this particular complaint? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/9 "2017-02-08T20:31:26Z")
> [@Robert H. Jackson](#): > > The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials, and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections… > > Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good, as well as by evil, men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon, but, at other times and places, the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity. As governmental pressure toward unity becomes greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard. > > It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority… > > Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization…But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. > > If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. [_West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_ (1943)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624#writing-USSC_CR_0319_0624_ZO) ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/10 "2017-02-08T20:31:32Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I don’t think ED is heavily involved in setting curricula, so their relevance here isn’t clear to me. > > My experience is restricted to DC charter schools, which are secular and have a greater share of minority students than the rest of the public schools. Is that atypical? Like the EPA, the DoE is an easy scapegoat for any issue of the day that people don’t like. Like many things federal, people, including politicians, somehow both underestimate and overestimate what the DoE has influence over. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/11 "2017-02-08T20:34:25Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > How the hell has this been going on since 1939, without anyone saying anything? I don’t know the area, but I would presume a very insular community. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/12 "2017-02-08T20:36:00Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > How the hell has this been going on since 1939, without anyone saying anything? They _could_ do something, like investigate and/or withhold matching federal funds, as it says [here:](https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/focus/what_pg3.html) > [@](#): > > 1. The Department of Education— > enforces federal statutes prohibiting discrimination in programs and activities receiving federal funds and ensures equal access to education for every individual. > > The Department enforces five civil rights statutes to ensure equal educational opportunity for all students, regardless of race, color, national origin, sex, disability or age. These laws extend to all state education agencies, elementary and secondary school systems, colleges and universities, vocational schools, proprietary schools, state vocational rehabilitation agencies, libraries and museums, and other entities that receive U.S. Department of Education funds. …but you don’t screw with Christians and the Congresscritters they lobby if you want to keep your doors open. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/13 "2017-02-08T20:38:06Z")
I’m all for including religious texts as part of, say, English lit. But this appears innapropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/14 "2017-02-08T20:48:55Z")
I received catechism in public school in northern Maine in the mid-70’s - in like third or fourth grade. I didn’t even know what it was until I mentioned it to my parents. As in: “Great potatoes mom. I love the lumps. So anyway, today in catechism …” “In fucking what?” “Uh … catechism? Third period? Right before recess?” “They’re fucking teaching you goddamned motherfucking catechism? In fucking public school? Not on my goddamned watch! The cocksuckers.” After that me and one other girl got to go sit out in the hall while the rest of the class continued to receive their religious training. I have no clue how long that went on up there. It may still be standard third period fare for all I know. And yes, I do recall a getting a little shit for being the weird kid who had to sit in the hall, but I was the new kid in town anyway so I had enough to worry about without having to identify the source of the shit-flinging, as it were. In retrospect, there probably wasn’t that much swearing, but my mom’s potatoes were fucking awesome. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/15 "2017-02-08T20:50:16Z")
The solution for the school is pretty simple. Hold such classes AFTER regular hours and on a voluntary basis. IIRC, that’s OK with the caveat that if some other group wants to do something similar (Jewish or Moslem or Wicca), they have to be allowed to, also. It’s probably hard for us “coastal elites” to understand, but there are parts of the country who just don’t buy into the whole modern interoperation of the Establishment Clause. BTW, this is to some extent a peculiarly American phenomenon. In Canada, for instance, one can choose to send one’s kids to public schools where religion is part of the curriculum (depending on which province you live in). This is also common in many European countries. After all, many of them explicitly have Established Churches. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/16 "2017-02-08T20:58:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The solution for the school is pretty simple. Hold such classes AFTER regular hours and on a voluntary basis. IIRC, that’s OK with the caveat that if some other group wants to do something similar (Jewish or Moslem or Wicca), they have to be allowed to, also. In a school district that thinks that what they are doing doesn’t discriminate against other religions because they are open to _all_ Christians that believe that Jesus died for their sins, that Creationism is fact, and that men and dinosaurs frolicked together in perfect harmony, I doubt very much that other classes about the Jewish, Moslem or Wikkan faiths would ever see the light of day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/17 "2017-02-08T21:01:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In a school district that thinks that what they are doing doesn’t discriminate against other religions because they are open to _all_ Christians that believe that Jesus died for their sins, that Creationism is fact, and that men and dinosaurs frolicked together in perfect harmony, I doubt very much that other classes about the Jewish, Moslem or Wikkan faiths would ever see the light of day. Actually, whether they have after school classes for Christians or not, they would be required to allow other religious groups to meet anyway. I suppose they might try and quash it “for budgetary reasons” or something, but the law is clear, even if it’s not so easily enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/18 "2017-02-08T22:44:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In a school district that thinks that what they are doing doesn’t discriminate against other religions because they are open to _all_ Christians that believe that Jesus died for their sins, that Creationism is fact, and that men and dinosaurs frolicked together in perfect harmony, I doubt very much that other classes about the Jewish, Moslem or Wikkan faiths would ever see the light of day. ELWOOD: Er… what kind of music do you usually have here? CLAIRE: Oh, we got both kinds. We got Country, and Western. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/19 "2017-02-15T23:17:28Z")
I guess I just go back to the text of the Constitution and do not see how the Mercer County Board of Education is establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. No student is being forced to participate in these classes, nor is there punishment for professing atheism, Judaism, Islam, etc. Clearly it is silly to be teaching children that Adam slid down the backs of dinosaurs, but, like most things, the solution is to get rid of the people responsible for this curriculum and not involve the all-powerful judiciary. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342/20 "2017-02-15T23:25:55Z")
Really? They’re establishing that Christianity is the only religion that matters by teaching it that way in a tax-payer funded public school. You really can’t see that as a bit of slight against the establishment clause? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-virginia-public-schools-sued-over-bible-classes/779342.md?page=2)