# West Wing 5/14 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330 "2003-05-15T01:57:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/21 "2003-05-15T15:44:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by USCDiver \* > \*\*Ok, so I was just kinda going over that last scene in my head. Someone points out that the speaker must resign, he says “That’s true…hand me a piece of paper” I don’t think it was anything prepared for resignation. At that point he is no longer the Speaker, so technically how can he then assume the office of Acting President? I may have gotten my timing mixed up. Did Bartlett sign off on his paper first, making Goodman the Acting President and the Speaker of the House for a couple of minutes before Goodman resigned? \*\* I noticed the same thing: Bartlet signed first. It probably should have been the other way around. But evidently everyone present, including an associate justice, regarded the signings as contemporaneous and the transfer of power as lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/22 "2003-05-15T16:03:43Z")
Scout said, "Has John Goodman gotten larger? I mean, I know he’s always been a hefty man, but when he walked in, I thought, “Woah!” He seems larger than he was in the Roseanne days. " I said the same thing. He’s a huge dude. I’d hate to be on his bad side. But I think he’s a great actor. He can handle this part. I think next season is going to be great. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/23 "2003-05-15T16:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*But Sorkin is gone. \*\* My point exactly. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/24 "2003-05-15T16:38:16Z")
I was thinking about this episode driving in to work this morning. It’s sort of like watching all of the pieces of the puzzle fall in place. This explains why they had to get rid of the Veep, or else it would have just been Hoynes in succession and then where’s the drama. Sure it’s a bit of a stretch, but tv and cinema are both about some suspension of disbelief. How did the van escape the net to get to Dover, for instance? I loved Toby in this episode. His talk with his children was great. I got a little misty when I realized they had named her Molly (a second or two before he said it). I think Huck is a cute boy’s name, although I’m not wild about Huckleberry. Given Andi’s defiant nature, it’s not surprising. I liked when the Prez and Leo talked on the steps. That was real. I liked the big entrance by Goodman (what was his character’s name). I’d love to see them not make his character a caricature of the evil Republican. Please show his good side and his redeeming qualities. Sure, they set him up as a hardass when he said he would have ordered down the plane, even with his mother in it, but in our post 9/11 world that’s hardly a surprising stance. All real politicians are at least a little Machivellian, so I won’t mind that, but please don’t make him one dimensional. Can he nominate a VP and try to push a Republican into the Vice Presidency? I know that back when they used to have the runner up in the General Election become VP, so it’s not unprecedented. I know it would look like a coup, but if they then hand back the Presidency it just looks like partisan politics. And it made me wonder what would happen in real life if one of the Bush girls got nabbed by al Qaeda? This plus a Cheney heart attack really doesn’t put this that far beyond the realm of the possible, although IRL the Speaker is also a member of the GOP. And where was Chandler Bing during all of this? ---
**Author:** ![Auntie\_Social](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@Auntie\_Social](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntie_Social)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/25 "2003-05-15T18:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > **I think they are going to bring up MS again.** But you would need the Veep and the Cabinet to declare him unfit for duty. Bartlett’s own cabinet is not going to do that to him. If the GOP Congress got to decide, it might be another matter. Of course, if they’re willing to truly get ridiculous, they could have the congress try to appoint a new (GOP) veep _and_ establish another body to decide whether the Prez was fit for duty, then use them to keep him out for good. Let’s pray things don’t get that stupid. Count me in the nervous-about-next-year camp. I think there’s a lot of potential for Goodman to play a heel rather than just a cantankerous member of the opposition party. ---
**Author:** ![Flypsyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Flypsyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flypsyde)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/26 "2003-05-15T18:32:06Z")
What I was thinking the entire time was this-what’s to stop the Acting President from giving the ol’ heave-ho to the West Wing staff and the Cabinet? The President must have unilateral control over his own staff, and I would guess that it’s almost as uncontested over his Cabinet. I don’t know that for sure and haven’t looked up how the hiring and firing of the Cabinet works, but it sure seems that as part of the Exec branch, the President would have final say over who stays or goes. I actually thought it would’ve been more dramatic had the Cabinet, even a single member, refused to give their consent to his stepping down. Like the Secretary of Veteran’s Affairs refuses to let the Republicans take power. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/27 "2003-05-15T19:24:46Z")
Between West Wing and 24, I have learned more about the 25th Ammendment than I did throughout school! Even though Sorkin is (sadly) no longer going to be writing for the show, my guess is that there is a “bible”, like on soap operas, that outlines the basic plot for the season. With half-way decent writers, it shouldn’t be a problem to keep up the good work - the characters have all been fleshed out, so the real work has already been done. I thought it was a good episode and, as far as the plot being a little over-the-top - well, if it weren’t, the show might as well be called CSpan. And to show how unpredictable this show is - I would not be at all surprised if they actually allow the character of Zoey to be killed off. Think of how that will affect the characters next season. A really pissed off, ain’t-got-nothing-to-lose-now Democratic President… ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/28 "2003-05-15T19:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShibbOleth \* > **Can he nominate a VP and try to push a Republican into the Vice Presidency? I know that back when they used to have the runner up in the General Election become VP, so it’s not unprecedented. I know it would look like a coup, but if they then hand back the Presidency it just looks like partisan politics.** Yes, the Acting President can nominate a new Vice President. The Republicans control both houses, in the _West Wing_ world as in real life, so presumably they would confirm a Republican nominee. But a new Vice President would then become the Acting President and displace the former Speaker: > [@](#): > > An individual acting as President under subsection (a) or subsection (b) of this section shall continue to act until the expiration of the then current Presidential term, except that - > > (1) if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the failure of both the President-elect and the Vice-President-elect to qualify, then he shall act only until a President or Vice President qualifies; and > > (2) if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the inability of the President or Vice President, then he shall act only until the removal of the disability of one of such individuals. [3 U.S.C. § 19©](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/3/19.html). ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/29 "2003-05-15T19:34:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Flypsyde \* > \*\*What I was thinking the entire time was this-what’s to stop the Acting President from giving the ol’ heave-ho to the West Wing staff and the Cabinet? The President must have unilateral control over his own staff, and I would guess that it’s almost as uncontested over his Cabinet. I don’t know that for sure and haven’t looked up how the hiring and firing of the Cabinet works, but it sure seems that as part of the Exec branch, the President would have final say over who stays or goes. > > I actually thought it would’ve been more dramatic had the Cabinet, even a single member, refused to give their consent to his stepping down. Like the Secretary of Veteran’s Affairs refuses to let the Republicans take power. \*\* The Cabinet officers, like the staff, serve at the President’s pleasure. So yes, the Acting President could fire any or all of them. But in a way, the Acting President is also serving at President Bartlet’s sufferance, and so won’t be looking for ways of provoking Bartlet into reclaiming the office. And an important issue in the transition is demonstrating to the public and the world the United States government’s continuity and steadiness, which are not served if the Acting President (whose character’s name escapes me) induces political convulsions like replacing key staff or administration leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/30 "2003-05-15T19:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > What I was thinking the entire time was this-what’s to stop the Acting President from giving the ol’ heave-ho to the West Wing staff and the Cabinet? You mean something like a Tenure in Office Act? ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/31 "2003-05-15T20:06:25Z")
Let’s also remember, the President can resume power any time he wants. The second President Goodman handed Donna walking papers or sent the HUD secretary packing, much less tried to get anyone put through the congressional approval process (which takes a long time even if the nominee is a lock), Bartlett would be back. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/32 "2003-05-15T21:25:19Z")
Did anyone else, during the cabinet vote, hear President Bartlett say, “The Secretary of Health and Education?” I distinctly heard this, and read it on the closed captioning. Apparently in the WW universe the two departments were merged (or it’s happened in our universe and I missed it). ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/33 "2003-05-15T21:39:49Z")
Personally, I don’t think that Acting President Walken is going to try any funny stuff, like appointing a Republican VP or trying to dismiss the Cabinet. Why? Because he wants to be elected President in the next general election, so why enact a coup when he has the golden opportunity to seem like a level-headed, non-partisan hero in times of trouble? Really, it’s his big chance to seem like a swell guy with a cool head in a crisis. If he goes mucking about with non-crisis-related activities, he’s shooting himself in the foot. This is not to say that he won’t be a royal pain in the ass to all the Bartlet staffers, but then, John Goodman plays a great pain in the ass. I look forward to the sparks flying next season. But let me ask you guys this question that was bugging not only me but Nancy McNally as well: how exactly was this kidnapping orchestrated? It seems to hang on a number of odd coincidences. Is Jean-Paul in on it? If so, I expect great suffering to be visited upon him, but it sort of seems unlikely that he’d be quite that stupid. I mean, he took the drug too, and he passed out, which is not exactly a clean getaway. For the moment I’m assuming that he’s not part of the plot; so how did the kidnappers know that she would be dosed? That seems like a bit of serendipity for the kidnappers. Also, how did they know she’d get to the bathroom and not pass out right at the table in the middle of the club? Was the whole GHB thing a happy accident for the villains, who were planning on nabbing her in the bathroom no matter what? Yes, I suppose most of these questions will have to wait until the season premiere, but I thought I’d post them on the off chance that someone here had some ideas. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/34 "2003-05-15T22:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > You mean something like a Tenure in Office Act? The Tenure of Office Act, passed after the assassination of President Lincoln and over the veto of President Andrew Johnson on March 2, 1867, provided that all federal officials whose appointment required Senate confirmation could not be removed without the consent of the Senate. This act was an effort on congress’s part to keep President Johnson from firing Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, who was trying to act as President behind Johnson’s back. Johnson tried to fire him anyway and congress retaliated by trying to impeach him and in article one of the articles of impeachment, (there were a total of 11 including one charging him with public drunkenness) it stated that he had violated the law by attempting to fire Stanton. It failed, by one vote, and the act was finally repealed in 1928. Just goes to show that not much has changed in a 130 years (think the Clinton impeachment) For more info on the impeachment of Johnson go to: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/impeach/impeachmt.htm](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/impeach/impeachmt.htm) ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/35 "2003-05-16T02:19:24Z")
Gah! Tape… didn’t… wrong… channel!!! Agh! Some annoying tenor… singing… no West Wing! None! Not one scene! Noooooo!!! Please… anybody… tape? Will work for tape? Pleeeeeease? ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/36 "2003-05-16T02:40:53Z")
I have it on tape, along with tonight’s NBC lineup. ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/37 "2003-05-16T03:30:09Z")
I just want to say, I love _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ more than maybe any other work of prose in the English language, and I still can’t imagine what posessed Toby to do that to his own child. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/38 "2003-05-16T03:45:28Z")
I was kinda disappointed with how it ended. I thought Goodman overacted (especially with the “Mr. President, you’re excused.” line) and they were vague on how long he would be holding the office. Was it prepared for days? Weeks? Months? And I found the storyline to be especially improbable. They went from the mostly politics, some personality type storyline to a mostly personality, vaguely political storyline. I hope this was just a “lets try something new for this episode” and doesn’t persist. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/39 "2003-05-16T04:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and for that hotdogging airplane? It would have been shot down after they couldn’t raise them the first time. > > After Sept 11, you don’t screw around with communicating with air traffic control. Maybe in our world, but in the world of _The West Wing_, that attack didn’t happen (so I presume they still have an intact World Trade Center). (By the way, what year is it in the world of that show? 2001 or 2005?) The Speaker (now Acting President) already has a leg up on our current real-life President in that he was able to give a concise, coherent off-the-cuff description of the political events leading to World War One. I doubt if GWB can do that. ---
**Author:** ![Kallessa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7993a0/32.png) [@Kallessa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallessa)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330/40 "2003-05-16T06:39:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Baldwin_ > > (By the way, what year is it in the world of that show? 2001 or 2005?) I believe in \* The West Wing\* world (a phrase this formerly speech-impeded girl would not like to say three times fast), that presidential elections are held two years off from the real world, so Bartlett was re-elected in 2002, but the series takes place in real time, more or less (Zoey graduated in May of 2003, just like many Dopers). And although they never identified exactly what happened, there was a major terrorist attack on the show, so the heightened security/paranoia is reasonable to the storyline. As for GWB knowing the lead-up to WWI–I just hope he hasn’t given all of us the lead-up to WWIII. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/west-wing-5-14/175330.md?page=3)