God’s going to be on vacation if Phelps shows up at the funeral of a family member or friend. I can honestly say I don’t think I could restrain myself under the emotional strain of grief.
FriarTed, your screen name always reminds me of the old joke about the missionary who is captured by cannibals and who objects to being boiled in a big caldroun because he’s a friar.
Also, it’s a good thing that Jewish clerics seldom fall into the hands of cannibals, because so few have a license to hunt a fricaseein’ rabbi.
Can I get a rimshot? 
Is there a healthy way to fixate on anal rape? 
There are quite many, FriarTed. Very little Googling will take you to site after site, and page after page of the JFJ deceptive tactics. I’ll give you some links, but let me explain it to your first. What they do is appeal to Jews as Jews. In other words, they do not approach Jews with a Christian message of salvation. Instead, they simply infiltrate Jewish culture. For example, here is one source:
No Sunday services take place here; this congregation meets only on Friday evenings and Saturday mornings. You will never see a cross or an altar; there is an Aaron Hakodesh (holy ark) with a star of David adorning its velvet cover, and a Bimah (stage for prayer services) in the center of the sanctuary. The majority of the men who worship here wear kipot, and their tzitzit hang down the sides of their pants. This congregation’s rabbi, among many other functions, reads from the Torah and makes Kiddush every Shabbat. Most of the women are modestly dressed. Joyous shouts of “Shabbat Shalom” and “Baruch Hashem” can be heard as young couples greet each other. The sanctuary pulsates to a modern Israeli musical beat.
If this sounds like a description of a traditional Jewish house of worship, think again. The above is actually a description of any one of the hundreds of Messianic “synagogues” which flourish throughout the world. Confused? Many are.
Such congregations are designed to appear Jewish, but they are actually fundamentalist Christian churches which use traditional Jewish symbols to lure the most vulnerable of our Jewish people into their ranks. Messianic “rabbis,” many of whom are Jewish by birth, are committed to bringing the Jewish people to know Jesus. Their agenda is to make Christianity more palatable to the uneducated Jew, and to the astonishment and horror of the Jewish community, their marketing ploys are proving to be successful.
JFJ also takes a lot of people to court, and find themselves fighting numerous court battles. How many times did Jesus appeal to the courts of Rome to solve disputes? See this source for an abundance of court cases. In particular, see this:
In 2006, Jackie Mason dropped a $2 million lawsuit he brought against Jews for Jesus after the group had used his name and image in a pamphlet, implying that he was a member. Mason agreed to drop the suit after the group gave him a written apology for the pamphlet.
That was unconscionable. How would you like it if someone used your likeness to promote the Church of Satan to Christians?
And see this there:
In 1993, Israel’s Supreme Court, in a case involving a couple affiliated with Jews for Jesus, ruled that Jews who adhere to the Christian beliefs are regarded by Israeli law as “members of a different faith,” and are not eligible for the automatic citizenship that Israel grants Jews. In its summary of the ruling, the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that the belief that Jesus is the Messiah “cannot be reconciled with Judaism” and “marks the clear separation between Judaism and Christianity.”
They cannot, by their own law, be both Jewish and Christian. That should settle it. Proselytizing a Jew in Israel could result in their loss of citizenship and deportation. That would never have been a goal of Jesus. He never would have pretended to be something He was not. The JFJ pretend that they are ordinary Jews and they use Jewish culture and language to lure converts, when in fact they are Christians only pretending to be Jews.
Is that the message and ministry that you really want to support? If you must support a ministry, then support one that preaches the Gospel. Not one that reads from the Torah. Let people know up-front that you want to talk to them about accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Don’t use infiltration and subterfuge to adopt their customs and practices, while pretending to be Jewish when you’re not.
That’s why you shouldn’t support them.
Nitpick: unless I am totally wrong, the Law of Return only applies to gaining citizenship, and once you are an Israeli citizen you can be a Christian, Jew, or whatever. I’m not aware of people who convert after they’re citizens being expelled.
With that being said, there’s still a lot of dishonesty going around the issue. We can (and perhaps should) start with the very name of the movement. Jews have, pretty much unanimously, made clear that the label “Messianic Jew” is deceptive and obnoxious, and that it really means “Christian”, or if you absolutely have to put a finer point on it “Christian with Jewish ethnic heritage.” We can equivocate on the meaning of words all day long, but the fact is that quite a few of the Messianic “Jews” are not just talking about ethnic heritage, but aim to conflate Judaism with Christianity rather than Jewishness with various spiritual traditions.
I’m also not sure that Friar is at all moved by appeals to the virtue of honesty. In the past, he’s gone out of his way to distort actual Jewish theology/prophecy to claim that Judaism, all along, was actually predicting (and validating) Jesus’ claim to be the Moshiach. Further, he argued that despite thousands of years of tradition filled with commentary, debate, and discussion over Jewish theology, that some perfidious rabbis deliberately twisted Judaism so as to exclude Christianity as just another sect of Judaism, despite the fact that (some of) Jesus’ (major) claims were not at all in accord with any phase of Jewish theology and the very idea that the Torah, which literally means The Law, is compatible with the idea that someone would come and invalidate The Law, is absurd.
Friar’s view of history in general and the Jewish religion in specific is evidently something akin to a paranoid fantasy wherein Judaism was hijacked, specifically to stick it to Christians, and all rabbis and Jes for 2000 years have been taken in by the conspiracy, but he’s got the truth about the Jewish religion. It is a deeply insulting, condescending, offensive and inflammatory charge, to not even accept that another religion’s religious leaders, scholars and practitioners know their religion/are being honest about it, because they decided to lie about their own faith in order to oppose your chosen religion.
Now, he can claim whatever justification he’d like. He supports groups who aggressively target Jews with tactics that Jews find offensive and morally repugnant, and he’s doing it for the sake of the Jews? The problem is that, there too, we’re used to hearing the exact same rationalizations through millenia of Christians persecuting us for not accepting Christianity.
Even from a pragmatic standpoint, approaching Jews with the tone of a Kindler, Gentler Dark Ages isn’t exactly palatable.
If Christians want to believe in Jesus as a Savior then more power to 'em But even then, you at least have to recognize that in the same tradition, God made a covenant with the Jewish people. The idea that God made a covenant with the Jewish people that was to last for all time and somehow lied to us is… odd.
Sounds harmless to me
Well, they don’t come across as fundamentalist Christian to me. They observe the Sabbath. That is a fundamental no no for Christians. I don’t think its fair for the Jews to reject them and then dump them on the fundamentalist Christians.
In fact, I think us gentiles should just stay the hell out of this family quarrel amongst the ethnic Jews.
Except they’re fundamentalist Christians. Not Jews.
They are Evangelical Christians, founded by an ordained Baptist Minister, *and they describe themselves as Christians and not Jews *(only when they’re not trying to trick other Jews), and admit that their purpose is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Jews (specially to eliminate Judaism as a religion). They’ve advised their members not to let their daughters marry Jews because Jews are “unbelievers”. They use Jewish rituals only as a cover and even use the Jewish High Holy Days to preach Christianity, taking things like Yom Kippur, a ritual (and annual) day of atonement and claiming that you don’t have to ritually attone annually, but just accept Jesus once and for all.
It’s perfectly “fair” for Jews to reject Baptists who play dress up and pretend to be Jews.
The fact that you’re even debating why a bunch of self described Evangelical Christians can’t be called that just shows why there’s something wrong with what they do, and just how perniciously deceptive they are.
The entire point is that, no, they do not actually observe the Jewish Sabbath. Just like i’f a bunch of Muslims had a ceremony with crackers and wine and then preached that Jesus was just another prophet but Mohamed was God’s final and authoritative prophet and the religious observances of Islam were necessary and mandated would really be practicing Communion.
Prove that anything other than token members are even ethnic Jews in the first place, anyways. I remain supremely unconvinced.
Wha…? There are whole Christian denominations that observe the Sabbath, like the Seventh-day Adventists, for example. And there is no reason a Christian cannot observe the Sabbath. It is certainly not a no-no, let alone a fundamental one.
The only comment Jesus ever made about it was to say that “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
And all that implied (in context) was that, if a man is hungry, for instance, there’s nothing wrong with picking grain on the Sabbath. Or if his sheep falls into a ditch, there’s nothing wrong with doing the work required to retrieve the sheep. That’s all He was saying about that. And I think that more liberal Jews treat the Sabbath pretty much the same way.
(Someone correct me if I’m wrong about that.)
from [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moishe_Rosen]wikipedia
The founder is an ethnic Jew.
Bwah?
You didn’t answer my question.
I asked you for proof of anything other than a token ethnic Jewish presence, you presented a token ethnic Jew. Who, yes, is an ordained Baptist minister. It is currently run by a man who is, yes, an ordained Baptist minister. He leads an organization that describes itself as an Evangelical Christian organization. You have yet to retract your claim that it’s somehow improper for Jews to consider Baptists not to be Jews and that it’s somehow wrong for Jews to say that Evangelical Christians are Christians.
I also asked for proof, pointing to the PR release from JfJ to ‘prove’ something about JfJ’s claims of “Moishe’s” background is just sloppy. The organization is well known for its deliberate deception, the man you cite chose his very name as a lie. And yet you cite his claims with zero verification in a manner that doesn’t even begin to address my actual question.
Why?
Further, it should be noted that while Martin “Moishe” Rosen claims that he was raised Orthodox (probably for the same reason he adopted an alias), the Encyclopedia of Evangelism states that he was raised in a Reform household.
It would be improper for me to judge the practice of rejecting ethnic Jews as Jews because they are Christians. I just don’t think its fair, Okay ?
And as far as Jews defining who is a Christian or not , my earlier response was directed with Lib’s messianic Jew group in mind. Christians meet on Sunday, not the Sabbath. Baptists meet on Sunday, not the Sabbath. what would you think of a Jewish group that forgoes the Sabbath and meets on Sunday?
First, I’ve seen no evidence that Rosen is a liar. In fact you already admitted yourself that he, the founder, is an ethnic Jew(see following quote). And I generally believe the character of an organization reflects the character of the founder at least within a generation
Whats your point? Wikipedia says his mother was Reform and his dad was not particularly religious but attended an Orthodox Synagogue. Its this kind of innuendo that makes me wary about all the unsubstantiated claims of deception and harrassment and then I’m challenged to prove a negative?
Well, my first point is that you’re still ignoring my question of proving that any but token members are actually ethnically Jewish in any case.
My second point is that given their proven record of deliberate deception, uncritically going by their own PR releases with no confirmation is a bit silly.
My third point is that it’s dishonest to claim that “wikipedia” says any such thing. In fact, the claim on Wiki is simply a restatement of JfJ’s PR claim about Rosen’s history, a claim that is at odds with a scholarly work. That’s where the link for the cite goes to, if you check.
My fourth point is that the claim that he was raised Reform is much more credible considering its source, especially since Rosen would have faked his “Orthodox” upbringing for the same reason he adopted an alias, to wit, to appear more ‘authentically’ Jewish.
So, it would be improper for you to judge, you’re just judging? No. The very definition of the word “gentile” applies. You cannot be a Christian and follow Judaism. That they happen to be ethnic Jews (or not, as you still can’t prove that claim) does not mean that Baptists are suddenly no longer Christian.
- Lib was talking about JfJ.
- They defined themselves as Evangelical Christians. This is, what, the third or fourth time I’ve mentioned it, and the same number of times you’ve failed to address it?
- Jews are not attempting to define who is or is not a Christian. They are saying that they can define who is or is not a Jew. And one of those disqualifying markers is self-identifying as Evangelical Christians.
That they’d chosen a different day for Shabbat. I’m not sure what your point is.
Yes, you have. Lib just cited just a tiny piece of it. Self described Evangelical Christians pretending to be Jews in order to trick potential converts.
What are you talking about? I “admitted” it? What cause would there be to deny it? And again, what do you think it ‘proves’? I’ve asked you to substantiate your allegation that they’re a group of ethnic Jewish Christians rather than a group of Christians with a few token ethnic Jews. You have yet to do that. You haven’t even attempted to do that.
Why not?
Yes, and he was an ordained Baptist minister dedicated to Christian missionary work.
What are you talking about? We’ve already given you proof of a self described Evangelical Cristian organization using the trappings of Jewish ritual to lure converts. I pointed out how despite their claims that Judaism (the religion) is compatible with Christianity, that they have told their own members not to let their daughters marry Jewish men, because Jews are “unbelievers”. You can google quite easily to see other examples, if you want. To say nothing of the fact that you’re misusing the word “innuendo” rather egregiously.
… what?
Cite, anywhere, at all, that anybody has asked you to prove a negative?
The claim you’ve been asked to prove is that any but token members of JfJ are actually ethnically Jewish in the first place. You’ve been asked to prove your claim. So far, you have not. Is this because you can not?
Just saying that I’m out of this conversation- we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
It’s like a conversation with a telemarketer, from hell. And he’s drunk.
And this is the point, way back a bunch of posts ago, about how Friar is pretty much a less honest version of Phelps. (I do not agree, by the way, that he’s more honest, not at all). Phelps at least admits that he hates Jews, has no regard for them as people other than to heap scorn on them for not following his own narrow view of Proper Religion. Friar pretends that he’s acting out of concern. It’s the same “concern” that drives a stalker to show up at a poor girl’s house, again and again, no matter what she wants, because he knows in his heart of hearts that he’s her soulmate and she really should just stop struggling so much and accept it already. Because, he tells her, if she doesn’t… really bad stuff is going to happen to her.
That isn’t love. That isn’t concern. That isn’t even common human decency. Phelps and Friar are two of a kind, it’s just the Phelps doesn’t mince words. He’s up front when he reveals that he doesn’t consider, even for a moment, treating Jews with anything approaching basic respect or dignity. He doesn’t, for an instant, want to consider where they’re coming from or what their deeply held beliefs are. He’s not interested in learning, either. Phelps thinks that there shouldn’t be any Jewish religion any more, and he’d be proud to be part of bringing about the end of Judaism. Friar agrees, on all counts. But he sidles up and smiles while Phelps yells.
Careful, Finn. Ted probably thinks you’re being strident and oppresive towards him, now.
HAH! We could protest her protest-leading when Phred dies.
You aren’t Man enough for this job. or something more biblically spewing.
That happened to a friend of mine. His cousin was killed in the military about a year ago and they protested at his funeral.
I agree that he is just an insane person and I am sure his children are brainwashed and abused. He would be laughable if he didn’t cause people pain at loved ones’ funerals. Unfortunately some people don’t know who he is and are shocked when they see a ‘minister’ protesting at their family member’s funeral.