# Westboro Baptist Church being sued **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 26, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107 "2007-10-26T14:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/1 "2007-10-26T14:30:14Z")
[Link](http://www.eveningsun.com/ci_7277523?source=most_viewed) It will be interesting to watch this and see how it turns out. Have they been sued before? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/2 "2007-10-26T14:33:15Z")
A good gesture, but even if he did win - and I’m by no means sure that the family will or even _should_ win - I’ll bet the WBC is practically insolvent. Dr. Bronner aside, most incoherent religious nutflakes are pretty broke. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/3 "2007-10-26T14:48:14Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] A good gesture, but even if he did win - and I’m by no means sure that the family will or even _should_ win - I’ll bet the WBC is practically insolvent. Dr. Bronner aside, most incoherent religious nutflakes are pretty broke. [/QUOTE] The Phelps’s are insolvent? I thought they were fairly wealthy. In any case, I’m not sure that the Snyders _should_ win, but I hope that they do. I hope it’s the first in a long string of suits that break their backs. I’d love to see those hate monkeys having to dance for table scraps. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/4 "2007-10-26T14:58:24Z")
It’s cases like this that really test your belief in the first amendment. I loathe these people. I loathe what they do. They have no moral or ethical right to intrude on families like this. But, as long as they weren’t outright disruptive, they probably do have a legal right to this type of speech and we probably do need to support it. And I **HATE** saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/5 "2007-10-26T14:59:59Z")
“Fag” comes from scripture? I’d go to their site and look it up, but honestly i’d really rather not. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/6 "2007-10-26T15:18:13Z")
[QUOTE=davidm] It’s cases like this that really test your belief in the first amendment. I loathe these people. I loathe what they do. They have no moral or ethical right to intrude on families like this. But, as long as they weren’t outright disruptive, they probably do have a legal right to this type of speech and we probably do need to support it. And I **HATE** saying that. [/QUOTE] I understand your concern. I, too, believe in a near-absolute freedom of expression in the form of speech, writing, artwork, and so forth. The question for the court is whether or not the WBC’s actions have exceeded the boundaries of protected expression. Personally, I think that picketing the funeral of someone who isn’t a public figure did cross that line. They weren’t expressing outrage at the actions of the dead person. I don’t think a reasonable person would regard the dead person as a proxy for a public figure or institution (which deserves no protection from picketing or protests). Nor do I think a reasonable person would regard a dead soldier as a proxy for homosexual behavior or for gay people in general (I do not believe that gay people or gay sex are sinful, but I accept that some religious groups don’t agree with me). In light of all of this, I think it can be argued that the WBC’s speech and other actions had no actual purpose other than to cause distress to the dead man’s family. At that point, like shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater, they don’t deserve constitutional protection. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/7 "2007-10-26T15:29:24Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] “Fag” comes from scripture? I’d go to their site and look it up, but honestly i’d really rather not. [/QUOTE] I thought the term was pretty much a modern one. I’m sure you could confirm without the need to go to their site which certainly can’t be trusted to contain accurate information. I’m glad someone is suing them. I wish their were a fund to help people to sue them. Wasn’t a new law passed that prevents people from picketing funerals in this way? Or was it shot down? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/8 "2007-10-26T15:32:19Z")
Stating up front that I only have the details contained in the article, I have a problem with this and hope the father loses. Not that I support WBC – I think “fuck off and die” accurately expresses my feelings towards them. However, I see a distinct parallel between shutting down their protests (when conducted legally) and, for instance, the person who put a series of crosses on a hill in California as an anti-war protest (back in 2003, when there was a tad more support for Bush’s War). IIRC, the howls in response included vandalization of the display. I **don’t** recall whether legal actions were taken, but would find them just as wrong-headed as this case. Freedom of speech **must** include hearing messages one doesn’t agree with; furthermore, “hate crime” is not a crime in and of itself, but an aggravation of an underlying crime. From what I can gather, no legal actions are justified here. From the article: > [@Evening Sun](#): > > Katz told jurors Tuesday the protests took place 1,000 feet away from St. John Catholic Church, where the funeral was held, down a hill and out of sight and hearing from participants. On preview, I see: > [@cwthree](#): > > I think it can be argued that the WBC’s speech and other actions had no actual purpose other than to cause distress to the dead man’s family. At that point, like shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater, they don’t deserve constitutional protection. I’m sorry, but I think that’s a terrible argument. Since when is “causing distress” illegal? And how on earth does this compare with shouting “fire!” (a public safety issue)? Again, I should reiterate that I despise the people involved with and the mindset of the WBC, and there’s no way this should be misconstrued as supporting their ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/9 "2007-10-26T15:41:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Katz told jurors Tuesday the protests took place 1,000 feet away from St. John Catholic Church, where the funeral was held, down a hill and out of sight and hearing from participants. If it was so out of sight then how were the funeral attendants aware of it? No, they were visible enough to cause distress to the family and other funeral attendees. People have been suing other people for pain and suffering for a long time and sometimes they win. I hope they win in this case and set a precedent for many more cases against the WBC. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/10 "2007-10-26T15:42:35Z")
I hate to say it too but it really is a first amendment issue, and Phreddy uses it like a giant club over the heads of anything and anyone he finds offensive – which is just about everything and everyone outside the WBC. I really do think there ought to be _some_ kind of law against using the funeral of one who is not a public figure, broke no laws, and did nothing but do what his government told him to do, to vociferously push personal and public agendas and spew hate and intolerance. I really can’t think of a single thing that could redeem such action, first amendment or no. I am thankful for free speech, are such actions really in the true spirit of free speech? I am perfectly willing and able to defend your right to say that which I may not agree with, but if what you have to say does _absolutely nothing_ but foment hatred and intolerance and serves no greater public good in any form, then I really think I have to draw a line. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/11 "2007-10-26T15:50:39Z")
It is hard to accept it as just an inevitable facet of freedom of speech. If Phred was accidentally trampled to death by ramblers, I promise I’d try equally hard to accept it as just an inevitable facet of freedom of movement. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/12 "2007-10-26T15:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] It is hard to accept it as just an inevitable facet of freedom of speech. If Phred was accidentally trampled to death by ramblers, I promise I’d try equally hard to accept it as just an inevitable facet of freedom of movement. [/QUOTE] Perhaps next time he is pretesting down hill from some funeral, we could persuade the attendees to leave their parking brakes off? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/13 "2007-10-26T16:52:59Z")
I liked how the judge slapped down Phelps while he was testifying. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/14 "2007-10-26T17:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] The Phelps’s are insolvent? I thought they were fairly wealthy. [/QUOTE] Didn’t the Phelps recently engage the ACLU to represent them? I don’t know if they were simply trying to make a political point (that is, if the ACLU refused, which they didn’t), but I think part of it was due to a lack of financial support. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/15 "2007-10-26T17:23:21Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] I really do think there ought to be _some_ kind of law against using the funeral of one who is not a public figure, broke no laws, and did nothing but do what his government told him to do, to vociferously push personal and public agendas and spew hate and intolerance. I really can’t think of a single thing that could redeem such action, first amendment or no. I am thankful for free speech, are such actions really in the true spirit of free speech? [/quote] That’s exactly what free speech is about. The First Amendment is essential to stop people from legislating against content of speech that they think is hateful or which they strongly dislike. Even people who are entirely hateful deserve protection to spew their hateful opinions. > [@](#): > > I am perfectly willing and able to defend your right to say that which I may not agree with, but if what you have to say does _absolutely nothing_ but foment hatred and intolerance and serves no greater public good in any form, then I really think I have to draw a line. Then you aren’t really willing and able to defend my right to say that which you may not agree with, are you? You think that some speech does not deserve to be heard. Don’t pretend you are somehow in favor of freedom of speech when you are only in favor of protecting speech which merely mildly offends you. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/16 "2007-10-26T17:24:47Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] “Fag” comes from scripture? I’d go to their site and look it up, but honestly i’d really rather not. [/QUOTE] Here is their explanation… > [@godhatesfags.com](#): > > ``` > The word "fag" is a contraction of the word "faggot" (or, "fagot"). When traced through its etymological history, the word "faggot" simply means "a bundle of sticks used as fuel." See dictionary.com and thesaurus.com (where such words as "fuel" and "brimstone" are used as synonyms). "Scholars" can't decide when such a word began to be used in reference to homosexuals, so we'll give the answer here: "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord." Amos 4:11. The word translated "firebrand" is the Hebrew word "uwd," which comes from a Hebrew verb meaning "to rake together" (or, "to gather together"). In short, the Hebrew word "uwd" is talking about burning sticks of wood that are gathered together. That is what the English word "faggot" means. Amos 4:11 could just as easily be translated "...ye were as a faggot plucked out of the burning..." > > ``` Samclem wrote an [article on the subject](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfaggot.html) for the SD also and he says the first reference to faggot meaning homosexual male was in 1914. So as usual, Westboro is making things up. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/17 "2007-10-26T17:37:36Z")
I’m a First Amendment proponent, too, and I also think the Phelps probably have the right to say what they do. But I also believe that communities, states, etc., have the right to legislate _where and when_ they say it. Want to preach their brand of hatred from the pulpit on Sunday mornings? Excellent, that way the only people listening will be those who voluntarily choose to. But choosing to say it in a location where they _know_ everyone will find it offends beyond “community standards” – which is a phrase often used in the context of what is obscene – then I think there’s no reason _not_ to prohibit it. It’s like the nudity and obscenity laws that communities make – it’s not the fact that you do it but where you are allowed to do it that gets regulated. Hate speech is as offensive as anything else deemed “obscene,” IMO, and should fall under the same legal jurisdiction. It also fits in with all the other hate speech/action crimes that are being tried these days, too. It’s illegal in most places to paint a swastika on a synagogue, or write “nigger” on a black person’s house. Why shouldn’t it also be considered a hate crime to call a soldier a fag and say that he deserved to die at his funeral? He’s not being protested as an individual, but as a member of a group that the Phelps object to for their own insane reasons. They’re welcome to say what they want on their _own_ turf – but leave the funerals alone! I hope the father wins. Intentionally causing distress by what the Phelps were saying and doing in this situation _should_ violate community obscenity standards and hate speech standards, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/18 "2007-10-26T17:46:54Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] A good gesture, but even if he did win - and I’m by no means sure that the family will or even _should_ win - I’ll bet the WBC is practically insolvent. Dr. Bronner aside, most incoherent religious nutflakes are pretty broke. [/QUOTE] Actually I was wondering the other day (almost started a GQ thread) about where the Phelpsies get their money. They’re rich enough to shuttle their entire troupe across the country regularly and maintain their compound. What puzzles me is that as I understand it, their church is basically coterminous with their family. Do the various Phelpsies with legal training actually take cases and represent ordinary people in non-foaming-at-the-mouth cases? Where do they get their money from? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/19 "2007-10-26T17:55:51Z")
Here is the website of the law firm, [http://www.phelpschartered.com/home.htm](http://www.phelpschartered.com/home.htm) I find it amusing that the history section says that Fred Sr “retired” from practicing law in 87. I guess that sounds better than saying he was disbarred in KS in 79 and had to agree to stop practicing law altogether as part of settling a disciplinary complaint in federal court. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107/20 "2007-10-26T17:58:52Z")
I’m glad someone is finally taking the Phelps gang to task on First Amendment grounds. The First Amendment does have limits, and as long as people like the Phelps monsters are allowed to trivialize it with their verbal retchings and public vomitings, they endanger the right of free speech. This isn’t free speech, it’s slander and libel, and it’s damn well time that Phelps and his goons were told they have no right to macquerade their hatred as religion or free speech. When a right is abused, as it is by these clowns, it causes ordinary people to look for ways to curtail that right for everyone rather than compel people to exercise it responsibly. I support the family of the fallen Marine and hope they are successful in their lawsuit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-church-being-sued/424107.md?page=2)