Westboro Baptist Church being sued

I think like everyone here, I am definitely conflicted between my strong belief in the upholding of the First Amendment and my absolute disgust for the Phelps’.

For me, I simply cannot justify their actions as just protest. They are vile, disgusting humans (which certainly doesn’t take away their right to free speech) who do what they do not because they want to make right in the world, but because they want to cause pain.

Some of you may disagree with the above, but I’m speaking as someone whose best friend was harassed by these people. They called up a woman (she was 19, so still young) whose husband had literally just been blown to pieces in Iraq and told her he was burning in hell for being a faggot. They told her during this phone call, that the baby that she was six months pregnant with at the time was also going to Hell because its father was a fag.

She was in her home, grieving the death of her husband that never even got to see her pregnant (she calculated it that she got pregnant a few days before he left), and they called with the sole purpose of harassing her. They told her they would be at her husband’s funeral and there was nothing she could do about it.

I was more proud than I’ve ever been when my community stood up against these fools. There were tons of veterans, the SWAT team, a unit of armed soldiers, AND the Hell’s Angels lined up outside that church in case the protesters showed. While that type of solidarity is a beautiful thing, it shouldn’t have come about under those circumstances.

Let’s be honest, if their real intent was to make CHANGE for something they felt was right, their actions would be limited to their protests. If that’s the case, why do they scream at widows and children outside of a father’s funeral? Is the widow going to make change? Maybe it’s symbolic, fine. Why do they call these people at home and tell them to go to www.godhatesfags.com so they can see the flyer telling people to go protest their dead husband’s funeral? Thank God for IEDS, right?

That’s, of course, the more emotional part of me. The political scientcist in me says that what they are doing surpasses what is protected speech. There have been times where they have almost incited riots-- all because they WANT you to hit them so they can sue you. I assure you that if they had shown up to my friend’s husband’s funeral, there would have been a riot (I later heard from the local gay rights organization that was tailing them that morning, that Phelps himself was here in town with them, but when they sent a person to scout out the church and saw everyone there, they decided to leave). I do think it is fair to compare what they do, where they do it, and how they do it to shouting fire in a crowded building. More so (and I’ll fully admit I’m not strong in Supreme Court cases, so if someone is willing to point out anything saying I’m wrong, I really don’t mind one bit), I think it is vital that we look at their intent. Like I said, if their intent was change, why call and harass people like my friend at home? Why tell her that her unborn child is a bastard fag? What does that accomplish?

I’m really sorry if this sounds stupid (it probably is), but can’t Phelps and his… fellow sewer-dwellers… be prosecuted for hate crimes? Doesn’t federal law have a provision for this?

Why? If they are in a public place where presumably other people can make the statements they desire, then you can’t discriminate against them because you find their speech evil. Just because people are offended by certain speech is no justification for prohibiting it.

Is it? I think it’s against the law to vandalize property that you do not own. But if someone wanted to write “nigger” on his own house, is that against the law?

You are confusing two issues. One is that it is illegal to vandalize private property or threaten people. The other is that it is legal for someone to practice free speech in a public area.

I believe funerals can prohibit people from protesting on their property. But if it is public property you cannot prohibit people from using it as a protest justs because you don’t like their message.

And it’s protected by our Constitution, so the father should lose. I think it’s much more obscene that people want to ban speech they don’t like.

Evil is entirely subjective, so that certainly isn’t and shouldn’t be the weighing mechanism. That said, what they say is tantamount to inciting a riot. The fact is that free speech is not unlimited and there are limitations we place on speech in order for our society to function.

How is what the Phelps’ are doing not defamation? How is it not “hate speech”? What about “fighting words”? Or intent on inciting a riot?

By all means, I’m not a lawyer, so I do ask those things genuinely. To me, there are certainly several areas where in which what the Phelps’ are saying may not be protected. I might definitely be wrong, which is why I’m asking, but it seems rather obvious to me. Then again, I fully admit I’m terribly biased.

Please show me one time a riot has happened as a result of their speech.

How are they defamation? Hate speech is protected by the Constitution. How are their words fighting words? And how are they intending to incite a riot?

I hope that the Phelps’s win, because I do think their actions are Constitutional, but I also hope it takes a protracted and extremely expensive trial to prove it. Because as much as I feel Phelps’s actions deserve to be protected, I still want that fucker to bleed for it, first.

Once again, I reiterate that I despise the Phelps’ and their ideology. With that said:

If it’s slander and/or libel, then that’s how they should prosecuted. Beyond that, since when is free speech necessarily devoid of hatred? My guess is that hatred is often a motivating factor in what people choose to speak out about (c.f.: “hate the sin, not the sinner”). Furthermore, they’re not masquerading anything; their hatred is on display for all to see.

Or, on the flip side, it causes “ordinary people” to actually think about the rights they enjoy. Rather than take the coward’s way out by inventing ways to restrict the rights of others.

Here’s a quick exercise: imagine that the Phelps’ issue was with “My Little Pony” (surely, a spawn of satan, but irrelevant here). They use the same arguments in their twisted little minds, but rather than “fags”, substitute MLP. Would the father have been offended? I doubt it. Would you advocate for “responsible” use of anti-MLP speech? I’d guess not. In other words, I should think that it doesn’t matter what the content of the speech is (excluding the recognized caveats, e.g., public safety, slander, etc.).

If it’s solely the “hatred” angle that’s getting you, you don’t actually believe speech should be free.

My understanding is that a “hate crime” is not a crime in and of itself, but only something that can be used to justify harsher penalties for an underlying crime.

If that’s incorrect, I’d really like to know.

It depends on the jurisdiction. Here in Canada, Phelps would indeed be charged and convicted under hate crimes legislation.

Thank you, **renob ** and Digital Stimulus (and others I may have missed), for so ably defending the spirit of the first amendment. If it can shelter nazis and communists and all manner of other human refuse, it can certainly cover a Phelps or two.

Discussions like this always remind me of this scene in “A Man for All Seasons”:

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

In other words, for those who need interpretation, equal protection under the law means that the law can protect actions that you find despicable, just as it protects your actions that someone else (even the majority of someone elses) might find despicable. There is no objective level of “despicableness” that can be legislated without gutting the spirit and meaning of the first amendment.

Roddy

You know, I forsee a wondrous day when people in masks attend something this wanker is ‘protesting’. And beat the shite out of him an his

Here

Hmmm. I like nearly all of what you’re saying here. Let me use your post, though, as a springboard to a point I think needs making that I’m not sure if you picked up on or not, based on phrasing:

There’s a difference between illegal and actionable. It is quite possible for a person to do or fail to do something that makes him liable to lawsuit but which is nonetheless quite legal to do or refrain from doing.

For someone to sue Fred, his actions need not be criminal in nature, just in violation of some ‘property’ (in the broadest, Lib-use sense, including things like right of quiet enjoyment) which belongs to another.

Correct. It’s something that has been difficult for me to understand, coming here and seeing that hate crimes aren’t prosecuted as they are at home in Canada.

Because Canada doesn’t have the First Amendment, which guarantees that no matter how disgusting your opinion is, you’re still allowed to say it in public.

Anyway, this reminds me … didn’t Fred threaten to go to Canada and protest … something … and then not show up? (Of course, they’re always threatening to go places and not showing up, so that’s not a surprise.) Could this be why, because he knew they would be arrested for hate crimes? IMHO, these laws restricting free speech are wrongheaded, but I wouldn’t be too sorry if the Phelpses found themselves on the wrong side of the Canadian justice system …

You know what that means, Canadians Dopers. Get cracking with the sodomy and faggotry!

Since I’ve the same conflict as everyone else twixt wanting the 1st Amendment and the Phelps clan ruined, I’ll just add some bits about their finances. There have been civil judgments against Phred over the years dating back to before his disbarrment, but he has no property (not even a bank account) in his name.

For a fantastic look [literally] inside the church, watch Lewis Theroux’s documentary for his BBC show. Theroux is a fantastic interviewer/documentarian- he’s completely non-judgmental with his subjects, whether they’re televangelists or Phelpses or drag queens, and so you actually learn something, unlike the screaming matches you always get when Phelpses go on any U.S. news show where Hannity and Colmes and Geraldo and Nancy Grace and all are more interested in having it clearly understood that “I THINK THESE PEOPLE ARE SCUM!” than in actual discourse (to the extent it’s possible with the Phelps family, and Lewis Theroux proves that yes, it actually is possible to an extent. There are clips on YouTube ([this one if you can’t watch them all](<object width=“425” height=“355”><param name=“movie” value=“http://www.youtube.com/v/wUG-JHnQ_qI&rel=1”></param><param name=“wmode” value=“transparent”></param><embed src=“http://www.youtube.com/v/wUG-JHnQ_qI&rel=1” type=“application/x-shockwave-flash” wmode=“transparent” width=“425” height=“355”></embed></object>)) and you’ll see the church itself (an assemblage of houses in a normal neighborhood with adjoining backyards ala BIG LOVE, a sanctuary (Phred lives in an apartment above the chapel), a print shop where they make/house their signs and banners. Pretty much all of the family money is communal and held by the church (which is 90% members of the immediate family with a few stragglers thrown in).

I absolutely feel sorry for this family except for Fred, even the nutcase leader Shirley Phelps Roper. They have to know on some level how wasted and empty and horrible their lives are, and their children surely know it. They crave abuse, something that most talk show hosts don’t seem to have any concept of- they’re used to being yelled at and reviled, there’s footage of them having their car windows broken, they probably live for the day when one of them is killed by a passerby. It’s amazing that [to my knowledge] none of them have ever even had the holy shit beaten out of them (except, according to former members of the church and family, by Fred) considering how they spend their lives deliberately provoking people.

Opening line above should read “Since I’ve the same conflict as everyone else twixt wanting the 1st Amendment protected and the Phelps clan ruined”.

What else are we supposed to do? We already have gay marriage! And the French! :wink:

Mon Dieu, but can you imagine two French gay guys getting married? The disagreements over the wine list alone would result in bloodshed.

Further discussion / refinement is welcome. I say that just to make it clear I’m not taking an adversarial stance (even if I might sound that way), but more of a collegial exchange. Particularly because I’m not entirely sure I’m addressing your point. Was it the first part of my post or the part after I’d previewed?

Sure. After all, that’s how the boundary conditions are decided in our common law system. At worst, one initiates legal action that is dismissed as frivolous.

I’m going to assume that wasn’t the extent of your point, but that it concerns my questions raised after my preview, specifically: (1) the illegality of causing distress and/or (2) the “fire in a crowded theater” comparison. For clarity, the actual quote I was responding to was:

First, I would disagree that the WBC’s actions had no purpose other than causing distress. They have a clear (and despicable) agenda; that agenda is most definitely not simply to harass a soldier’s family. Crank phone calls would be a much better way to do that. But that’s a different point – tangential, but different.

Rather, the point I was making was that “causing distress” does not equate with – nor does it even come close to – being unconstitutional. How on earth could it? ISTM that any value or position one might hold strongly and dearly enough such that non-physical confrontation leads to distress qualifies as free speech.

As to equating this incident with “fire in a theater”: again, I’m pretty sure the justification in its entirety concerns public safety – a recognition that that speech can lead to action. If those actions can be reasonably expected and would endanger public safety (a panic in a confined space), the speech can be restricted. IMO, a riot (or anything coming close to endangering public safety) is not a reasonable expectation in this case, unless one were to assume that the “audience” is comprised of violent thugs. In short, claiming this particular incident as potentially endangering public safety says volumes about the funeral’s attendees, not very much about the WBC.

Yes, the WBC suck. But does anyone really want to take up the mantle of everyone else sucking worse?