# Western media/Obama hypocrisy on Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134 "2014-03-07T18:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/61 "2014-03-08T22:13:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > No, if anyone is spreading misinformation it is you. The protests were not particularly violent, there have been several protects and riots in the United States where some small number of people were killed, buildings burned etc. That doesn’t give the government carte blanche to start massacring civilians with targeted gunfire. If you don’t believe the soldiers were ordered to fire on the protesters then I think you’re being extremely naive. > > The Parliament building _was not occupied_ by protesters when they voted for impeachment. [This](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26304842) even shows pictures of Parliament when the vote was happening, people are standing around relaxed, well dressed and happy. The building is not occupied by armed thugs. > > Did Yanukovych need to flee? Most likely he did, but I suspect if he had surrendered to authorities on the many counts of murder and corruption against him the protesters would have been satisfied with seeing him tried. > > As for the agreement, the protesters were not bound to accept the terms of it. Their leaders accepted it and the people rejected it, that’s the core of democracy. What happened in Ukraine was certainly uglier than us pushing Nixon out, but Ukraine is relatively new as an independent country, much poorer, and with a much rougher recent history than the United States. All told I think the Orange Revolution has been remarkably restrained, very few people have been killed, and they actually followed the law in their country. Now yes, part of the reason they were able to impeach Yanukovych was because of defections from his party and some members still loyal to him fleeing–but when a bunch of criminals who know they are about to be in trouble run away that’s not a failure of democracy. The only failure is they didn’t capture them before they could escape to Russia. If [this](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc) had happened in the US, the police would not just have stood there - they would have started shooting. Hell, people get shot in the US for reaching for their wallets. My understanding is - and please correct me if I’m wrong - that the Parliament building was surrounded by protestors, that less than half of the members were there, and that majority members were beaten outside the building: presumably for trying to get in. My overall impression is that the Ukrainian police were remarkably restrained, compared at least to American cops. I can’t imagine _them_ standing around while people were throwing Molotov cocktails at them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/62 "2014-03-08T22:18:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Take the invasion of Iraq, which I know most here believe to have been an illegal/illegitimate action, and ask yourself how that action had over 40+ countries that stood by the United States and this action by Russia has zero You are telling me then that all 40+ of those countries were ‘ignorant of international law’ whey the stood by the US. Ignorance is no excuse to ‘break the law’. If they are that ignorant of the law then they have no moral standard in judging Putin for ‘breaking the law’. A majority of ‘ignorance’ supporting it does not ‘excuse’ what essentially Bush and Blair did. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/63 "2014-03-08T23:12:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except for the two little details that the people in charge of the Ukraine now aren’t fascists, and that there’s no proposal for the Crimea to become independent. The fascist/neo-Nazi nature of the protesters who forced the president to flee has been repeatedly cited - if they’re not currently in charge of Ukraine no-one is. The two choices in the forthcoming referendum in the Crimea are independence or union with Russia - the former being a return to the constitution adopted in 1992 and declared void by the Ukrainian government at the time. This is not a new issue, it’s that the Crimea now has a chance to actually do what it’s people want. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/64 "2014-03-08T23:28:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A key difference is that the United States did not initiate any of those wars. Japan and Germany declared war on the United States and North Korea invaded South Korea. But Russia chose to start this war. Firstly, this isn’t a “war”, not yet anyway. Secondly, the United States was caught red-handed scheming before the coup about who was to be installed in power, so you are still on shaky ground. Most importantly however, you have less than artfully attempted to change criterion, bud. The matter for debate was whether or not an occupying force is a hindrance to “legitimate democracy”. Posters in this thread avowed that the occupying force in Crimea means the parliament’s vote was illegitimate. If that is true, the votes in Iraq, Afghanistan, South Korea, etc were illegitimate as well. You also accept outright government propoganda on the wars of the past century, but that is another topic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/65 "2014-03-08T23:35:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Most importantly however, you have less than artfully attempted to change criterion, bud. The matter for debate was whether or not an occupying force is a hindrance to “legitimate democracy”. Posters in this thread avowed that the occupying force in Crimea means the parliament’s vote was illegitimate. If that is true, the votes in Iraq, Afghanistan, South Korea, etc were illegitimate as well. OK, they were illegitimate too. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/66 "2014-03-08T23:56:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > OK, they were illegitimate too. Now what? Withdraw the empire and adopt a foreign policy of non-aggression. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/67 "2014-03-09T00:05:00Z")
I think you and the rest of the world have different definitions of “empire”. What has this to do with Crimea again? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/68 "2014-03-09T00:25:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think you and the rest of the world have different definitions of “empire”. What has this to do with Crimea again? The American establishment, including the media, is engaged in hypocrisy to the highest degree in criticizing Russia’s actions in Crimea. They, and posters on this board who usually take the establishment line, claim that the vote of the Crimean parliament is illegitimate because there is an occupying force there. Well, turns out there is an American occupational force in many of the worlds exemplary “democracies”. It is that of the US government. How does the rest of the world define empire? I’m pretty sure your claim to represent the worlds view of empire is not shared with the rest of the world. Your view is likely that of neo-conservatives and other Wilsonian idealists. IOW a small minority. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/69 "2014-03-09T00:32:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The American establishment, including the media, is engaged in hypocrisy to the highest degree in criticizing Russia’s actions in Crimea. They, and posters on this board who usually take the establishment line, claim that the vote of the Crimean parliament is illegitimate because there is an occupying force there. Well, turns out there is an American occupational force in many of the worlds exemplary “democracies”. It is that of the US government. > > How does the rest of the world define empire? I’m pretty sure your claim to represent the worlds view of empire is not shared with the rest of the world. Your view is likely that of neo-conservatives and other Wilsonian idealists. Which "exemplary “democracies” have “American occupational forces”? Can I ask are your feelings on this topic at all related to your anger at the defeat inflicted on the American South when they chose to secede to preserve slavery and white supremacy? I ask because when I see you discussing the Crimea I’m reminded of the arguments you’ve made regarding South Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/70 "2014-03-09T00:37:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The American establishment, including the media, is engaged in hypocrisy to the highest degree in criticizing Russia’s actions in Crimea. They, and posters on this board who usually take the establishment line, claim that the vote of the Crimean parliament is illegitimate because there is an occupying force there. Name names or this is pure bull and chicken shit. Who are the posters you are referring to.? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/71 "2014-03-09T01:10:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Which "exemplary “democracies” have “American occupational forces”? > > Can I ask are your feelings on this topic at all related to your anger at the defeat inflicted on the American South when they chose to secede to preserve slavery and white supremacy? > > I ask because when I see you discussing the Crimea I’m reminded of the arguments you’ve made regarding South Carolina. Japan, South Korea, Germany, follow the thread so I don’t have to repeat myself. I appreciate you recognizing my consistent support for self-determination ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/72 "2014-03-09T01:19:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Japan, South Korea, Germany, follow the thread so I don’t have to repeat myself. None of them are occupied militarily so your claims of “American Occupational forces” is asinine. Based on your logic the US is occupying Cuba due to US military forces at Guantanamo. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/73 "2014-03-09T01:20:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Japan, South Korea, Germany, follow the thread so I don’t have to repeat myself. > > I appreciate you recognizing my consistent support for self-determination It’s nice to have something to believe in but as the saying goes “foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/74 "2014-03-09T03:12:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The fascist/neo-Nazi nature of the protesters who forced the president to flee has been repeatedly cited - if they’re not currently in charge of Ukraine no-one is. The two choices in the forthcoming referendum in the Crimea are independence or union with Russia - the former being a return to the constitution adopted in 1992 and declared void by the Ukrainian government at the time. This is not a new issue, it’s that the Crimea now has a chance to actually do what it’s people want. The fascist/neo-Nazi nature of the protesters who forced the president to flee has been repeatedly claimed, but not proven. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/75 "2014-03-09T03:22:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Withdraw the empire and adopt a foreign policy of non-aggression. If you question the do-gooder empire you are a Commie(1950’s) Hanoi Jane(1960’s & 70’s) welfare queen(1980’s) big govt liberal(1990’s)’ weak on WOT; Saddam lover (2000’s) Muslim Symp. (2010’s) Putin lover(today) Its how they work it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/76 "2014-03-09T03:37:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you question the do-gooder empire you are a Commie(1950’s) Hanoi Jane(1960’s & 70’s) welfare queen(1980’s) big govt liberal(1990’s)’ weak on WOT; Saddam lover (2000’s) Muslim Symp. (2010’s) Putin lover(today) > > Its how they work it. If Human Action is observing those are not fixed dates. Some overlap/merge/converge, ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/77 "2014-03-09T03:58:37Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The three leaders of the victorious now-former opposition were Tyanybok, a quite open fascist, Klitchko who admittedly is more of an authoritarian, or quasi-fascist, and our man Yatsenyuk, who openly stated that he only wanted to be in power to do things the voters would never countenance. Klitschko is a fairly standard cut the government, lower taxes, increase international trade neo-liberal, and Yatsnyuk’s platform focuses on government transparency, more money for education and health care and higher taxes on the rich and renationalization of some formerly privatized industry. Of the three of them, only Tyanybok and his party come close to the “fascist” label. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/78 "2014-03-09T04:36:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The American establishment, including the media, is engaged in hypocrisy to the highest degree in criticizing Russia’s actions in Crimea. They, and posters on this board who usually take the establishment line, claim that the vote of the Crimean parliament is illegitimate because there is an occupying force there. Well, turns out there is an American occupational force in many of the worlds exemplary “democracies”. It is that of the US government. > > How does the rest of the world define empire? I’m pretty sure your claim to represent the worlds view of empire is not shared with the rest of the world. Your view is likely that of neo-conservatives and other Wilsonian idealists. IOW a small minority. Just to expand a bit on this: [**Obama Comes Out Against Crimea Self-Determination**](http://www.countercurrents.org/roberts090314.htm) > [@Paul Craig Roberts](#): > > The White House Fool has repeatedly declared erroneously and foolishly that it is “against international law” for Crimea to exercise self-determination. Self-determination, as used by Washington, is a propaganda term that serves Washington’s empire but is not permissible for real people to exercise. On March 6 Obama telephoned Putin to tell the Russian President again that only Washington has the right to interfere in Ukraine and to insist against all logic that only the “government” in Kiev installed by the Washington-organized coup is “legitimate” and “democratic.” > > \*\*In other words, the elected government in Crimea pushed by the people in Crimea to give them a vote on their future is “undemocratic” and “illegitimate,” but a non-elected government in Kiev imposed by Washington is the voice of self-determination and legitimacy. > > Washington is so arrogant that it never occurs to the hubris-infected fools what the world thinks of Washington’s blatant hypocrisy. > > Since the Clinton regime, Washington has done nothing but violate international law–Serbia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Honduras, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia. > > Does Russia have an Africa Command? No, but Washington does. > > Is Russia surrounding the US with military bases? No, but Washington has used the NATO organization, whose purpose disappeared 23 years ago, to organize western, eastern, and southern Europe into an empire army with forward bases on Russia’s borders. Washington is determined to extend the boundaries of a North Atlantic Treaty Organization to Georgia in central Asia and to Ukraine on the Black Sea. Both Georgia and Ukraine are former constituent parts of both Russia and the Soviet Union. > > Washington is doing the same thing to China and Iran. Washington is working to establish new air and naval bases in Philippines, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, with which to block the flow of oil and other resources into China. Iran is surrounded by some 40 US military bases and has US fleets standing off its coastline. > > In Washington’s propaganda, this rank militarism is presented as “defending democracy.”\*\* > > \ > > Many have been deceived by Washington’s propaganda. The world is slowly waking up, but is it in time? > > **The US media and much of Europe’s speak with one voice parroting Washington’s propaganda, demonizing Washington’s targets, and preparing insouciant Western populations for more war. The Western media, like Western governments, is devoid of integrity. Liars and whores rule.** Nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/79 "2014-03-09T05:34:19Z")
Paul Craig Roberts is a truther. Perhaps it makes me a snob but I find truthers, birthers, and Holocaust Deniers to be nuts who shouldn’t be trusted. I’m also pretty sure most people on this site think people who claim 911 was an inside job are unreliable cranks. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/80 "2014-03-09T06:54:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Paul Craig Roberts is a truther. > > Perhaps it makes me a snob but I find truthers, birthers, and Holocaust Deniers to be nuts who shouldn’t be trusted. > > I’m also pretty sure most people on this site think people who claim 911 was an inside job are unreliable cranks. :rolleyes: Debate 101: Attack the argument, not the source. Debate 101-b: Appeal to popularity. Of course if all your posts can do is makes “jokes,” ofuscate and use fallacies, well, that’s as good and telling a response as any. \***[Paul Craig Roberts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts#September_11.2C_2001_attacks)** – quite an accomplished man BTW [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=5)