# Western media/Obama hypocrisy on Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134 "2014-03-07T18:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/101 "2014-03-09T18:04:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Well the United States still exercises control over the South Korean military … This is completely false. South Korea’s armed forces answer solely to the Republic of Korea. The Commander-in-Chief is the President of South Korea. > [@](#): > > and has roughly 25000 troops stationed there. The US has about 40000 troops in Japan. 50000 in Germany. You can draw whatever conclusions about whether or not this amounts to an occupation. Well, no, you can’t. They’re not occupations. The term “military occupation” has a rather distinct meaning that clearly isn’t met in those cases. I mean, did Canada ALSO occupy Germany when it had troops there up until the 90s? Gosh, who was in control of that country? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/102 "2014-03-09T18:06:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This constant “but Iraq!” argument is stupid, and it’s time to retire it. \*\* Things that are wrong are wrong, even if someone else did it too. \*\*Even if they got away with it, in fact. That’s not the argument. The argument is that America has repeatedly invaded countries and stayed there whilst they voted, and so has no right to criticise Russia. The official position of America is that Iraq was not wrong, which means that they are hypocrites. That doesn’t mean I think _you_, or any other poster here, are necessarily hypocritical. I do think you’re wrong in saying that Russia shouldn’t have entered the Crimea when explicitly invited to by it’s people. To go back to Iraq, the US and allies _should_ have kept their promise to the Iraqi people in 1992 and invaded then. Doing it so many years later was cowardly, and doing it on a false pretext was dumb and, frankly, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/103 "2014-03-09T18:17:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How much more proof do you need than membership of openly fascist or neo-Nazi political parties? I truly don’t understand why people are claiming that this isn’t the case… Is it simply that you don’t believe that America and western Europe would support a fascist coup? That’s rather naive, to put it mildly. Repeating a claim ad nauseum doesn’t make it true. In fact, there are some ultra-right types within the protest movement. They are, however, a minority within that movement. Their participation does not make the movement as a whole “fascist” any more than the participation of parties of the ultra-right in the politics of Spain and France makes those countries “fascist”. It really is time to move on from that tired ad hom propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/104 "2014-03-09T18:20:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not the argument. The argument is that America has repeatedly invaded countries and stayed there whilst they voted, and so has no right to criticise Russia. The official position of America is that Iraq was not wrong, which means that they are hypocrites. > > That doesn’t mean I think _you_, or any other poster here, are necessarily hypocritical. I do think you’re wrong in saying that Russia shouldn’t have entered the Crimea when explicitly invited to by it’s people. To go back to Iraq, the US and allies _should_ have kept their promise to the Iraqi people in 1992 and invaded then. Doing it so many years later was cowardly, and doing it on a false pretext was dumb and, frankly, wrong. Bringing up what the US did in Iraq - whether that was analogous or not - is a compete red herring. It is a textbook example of the _tu quoque_ informal fallacy. [http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/105 "2014-03-09T19:03:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, no, you can’t. They’re not occupations. The term “military occupation” has a rather distinct meaning that clearly isn’t met in those cases. > > I mean, did Canada ALSO occupy Germany when it had troops there up until the 90s? Gosh, who was in control of that country? Actually, it technically was an occupation in Germany. Many people don’t realize that while the United States, Britain, and France allowed the West German government to manage its own affairs, it was technically being run by an occupation government until 1991. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/106 "2014-03-09T19:04:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Bringing up what the US did in Iraq - whether that was analogous or not - is a compete red herring. It is a textbook example of the _tu quoque_ informal fallacy. > > [Logical Fallacy: Tu Quoque](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) But as I forgot, this specific Ukraine thread is about Western hypocrisy so tu quoque argument is in fact quite proper. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/107 "2014-03-09T19:05:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Bringing up what the US did in Iraq - whether that was analogous or not - is a compete red herring. It is a textbook example of the _tu quoque_ informal fallacy. > > [Logical Fallacy: Tu Quoque](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) That’s precisely true, and I’ll repeat–the US had broad international support. It did not have UN support, but the UN is not a valid measure of justified international action because we have given two autocratic regimes that believe it is in their self interest to protect other autocrats veto powers over all UN sanctioned military actions. FWIW I think the invasion of Iraq was badly conceived, unnecessary, a waste of resources and an all around bad idea. However, Australia, the United Kingdom, Poland, Denmark, Italy, Japan, Norway and Netherlands are not “Micronesia”, but are respected countries of fairly large size and standing in the international community. Hell, even Canada covertly supported us in Iraq. Not all things are equivalent, while the invasion and long occupation of Iraq was far bloodier than anything is likely to be in Crimea, the fact it is that it was much less internationally condemned than this Crimea territorial grab. Iraq is now a genuinely free, sovereign country–and not even all that politically friendly to the United States (we couldn’t negotiate a BSA with them and now they appear to be taking the Iranian side in the grand Middle East proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia.) The idea that we gobbled up a bunch of territory in Iraq is simply false, and thus makes it a wholly different thing than the annexation of Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/108 "2014-03-09T19:30:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But as I forgot, this specific Ukraine thread is about Western hypocrisy so tu quoque argument is in fact quite proper. Well, you can’t _tu quoque_ Obama on this since he was opposed to the Iraq War. I don’t know how one can characterize the position of “Western Media” wrt said war. What does the term “Western Media”, taken as a whole, even mean? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/109 "2014-03-09T19:41:40Z")
Well the OP was restricted to hypocrisy on the Kiev vs Crimea revolts and I think it’s fair to say most Western nations and their major media outlets supported one and not the other. As far as comparing Iraq and Crimean votes, I think there’s enough to fend off total hypocrisy charges. Firstly the allowing of international observers and secondly the vote subject matter. “Who do you want in charge” is pretty different than “would you like to give up sovereignty?”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/110 "2014-03-09T19:49:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As far as comparing Iraq and Crimean votes, I think there’s enough to fend off total hypocrisy charges. Firstly the allowing of international observers and secondly the vote subject matter. “Who do you want in charge” is pretty different than “would you like to give up sovereignty?”. My understanding is that the Crimean referendum will give them the chance to _assert_ their sovereignty for the first time since 1992, or to join Russia. I don’t read Russian, so that may be an incorrect translation, but the first option is supposedly to restore the Crimean constitution from then that Ukraine overruled. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/111 "2014-03-09T19:50:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well the OP was restricted to hypocrisy on the Kiev vs Crimea revolts and I think it’s fair to say most Western nations and their major media outlets supported one and not the other. And here I was thinking they were just reporting about both. I didn’t know that “Western Media” was taking sides. And the OP only chose to elaborate on Obama, so maybe we can focus on him. But then, I think the hypocrisy charge has already been debunked. Whatever one might think of what happened in Kiev, it didn’t involve military force from another country. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/112 "2014-03-09T20:01:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And here I was thinking they were just reporting about both. I didn’t know that “Western Media” was taking sides. > > And the OP only chose to elaborate on Obama, so maybe we can focus on him. But then, I think the hypocrisy charge has already been debunked. Whatever one might think of what happened in Kiev, it didn’t involve military force from another country. Not sure what you mean by “debunked”. I saw **njtt** say this: > [@njtt](#): > > You know perfectly well that no referendum would happen at all if Ukrainian forces loyal to the present Kiev regime were in control of the region. Crimea’s Russian natives would be given no choice but to remain under Ukrainian nationalist rule. > > I am not saying the vote, if it happens, will be free, I am saying that if it _were_ free, the pro-Russian side would probably win anyway, so if it is takes place under Russian guns, that probably makes no difference to the outcome. The fact that the Russian commitment to freedom and democracy is questionable is really beside the point here. Putin’s interests just happen to align more closely with those of the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea than do those of the Ukrainian nationalists in control in Kiev. Unless there are further radical regime changes in Kiev, Ukraine is not going to come out of this as a shining beacon of democracy and freedom either. Indeed, it it is likely to wind up a good deal worse than Russia is now. > > There are really no “good guys” in the current situation, and **Obama is playing strategic realpolitik (which means yes, he is being hypocritical) just as much as Putin is.** (Bolded for emphasis.) And I think he’s right: what’s happening is realpolitik. But that doesn’t mean it’s not hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/113 "2014-03-09T20:07:51Z")
John, my impression of the “just reporting” is that the Kiev protests really were painted in a much more heroic light. Ymmv but I thought it was rather obvious. Actually Steophan there is no independence choice. Either join Russia or use the 1992 constitution that explicitly stated Crimea is part of Ukraine. But I don’t speak Russian either. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/114 "2014-03-09T21:33:23Z")
[\*\*The ‘We-Hate-Putin’ Group Think The only foreign policy show on the U.S. media dial this past week has been the endless bashing of Russian President Putin over the Ukraine crisis – with an occasional slap at President Obama for ever having worked with Putin on issues like Syria and Iran.\*\*]([http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-2](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-2)) > [@](#): > > he U.S. political-media elites, which twisted themselves into a dangerous “group think” over the Iraq War last decade, have spun out of control again in a wild overreaction to the Ukraine crisis. Across the ideological spectrum, there is rave support for the coup that overthrew Ukraine’s elected president – and endless ranting against Russian President Vladimir Putin for refusing to accept the new coup leadership in Kiev and intervening to protect Russian interests in Crimea. > > The “we-hate-Putin” hysteria has now reach the point that former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has deployed the “Hitler analogy” against Putin, comparing Putin’s interests in protecting ethnic Russians in Ukraine with Hitler citing ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe to justify aggression at the start of World War II. > > \ > > Some Clinton backers suggested she made the provocative comparison to give herself protection from expected right-wing attacks on her for having participated in the “reset” of U.S. policy toward Russia in 2009. She also was putting space between herself and President Barack Obama’s quiet effort to cooperate with Putin to resolve crises with Iran and Syria. > > But what is shocking about Clinton’s Hitler analogy – and why it should give Democrats pause as they rush to coronate her as their presidential nominee in 2016 – is that it suggests that she has joined the neoconservative camp, again. Since her days as a U.S. senator from New York — and as a supporter of the Iraq War — Clinton has often sided with the neocons and she’s doing so again in demonizing Putin. > > \ > > Usually neocons are among the first to protest this cheapening of the Holocaust’s memory, but apparently their determination to take down Putin for his interference in their “regime change” plans across the Middle East caused some neocons to endorse Clinton’s Hitler analogy. One of the Washington Post’s neocon editorial writers, Charles Lane, wrote on Thursday: “Superficially plausible though the Hitler-Putin comparison may be, just how precisely does it fit? In some respects, alarmingly so.” > > Yet, outside of this mad “group think” that has settled over Official Washington, Clinton’s Hitler analogy is neither reasonable nor justified. If she wanted to note that protecting one’s national or ethnic group has been cited historically to justify interventions, she surely didn’t have to go to the Hitler extreme. There are plenty of other examples. > > For instance, it was a factor in the Mexican-American War in the 1840s when President James Polk cited protecting Texans as a justification for the war with Mexico. The “protect Americans” argument also was used by President Ronald Reagan in justifying his invasion of the Caribbean island of Grenada in 1983. Reagan said he was protecting American students at the St. George’s Medical School, even though they were not in any real physical danger. > > In other conflicts, human rights advocates have asserted the right to defend any civilians from physical danger under the so-called “responsibility to protect” — or “R2P” — principle. For example, neocons and various U.S.-based “non-governmental organizations” have urged a U.S. military intervention in Syria supposedly to protect innocent human life. > > However, if anyone dared compare Ronald Reagan or, for that matter, R2P advocates to Hitler, you could expect the likes of Charles Lane to howl with outrage. Yet, when Putin faces a complex dilemma like the violent right-wing coup in Ukraine – and worries about ethnic Russians facing potential persecution – he is casually compared to Hitler with almost no U.S. opinion leader protesting the hype. > > \ > > U.S. Hypocrisy > > In the same news conference, Putin noted the U.S. government’s hypocrisy in decrying Russia’s intervention in Crimea. He said: “It’s necessary to recall the actions of the United States in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Libya, where they acted either without any sanction from the U.N. Security Council or distorted the content of these resolutions, as it happened in Libya. There, as you know, only the right to create a no-fly zone for government aircraft was authorized, and it all ended in the bombing and participation of special forces in group operations.” > > There is no denying the accuracy of Putin’s description of U.S. overreach in its interventions in the Twenty-first Century. Yet, Secretary of State John Kerry has ignored that history in denouncing Russia for using military force in the Crimea section of Ukraine. Kerry said on Tuesday: “It is not appropriate to invade a country and at the end of a barrel of gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not Twenty-first Century, G-8, major-nation behavior.” > > Despite Kerry’s bizarre lack of self-awareness — as a senator he joined in voting to authorize the U.S. invasion of Iraq — it is Putin who gets called “delusional.” While virtually all mainstream U.S. news outlets join in the demonization of Putin, there have been almost no words about the truly delusional hypocrisy of U.S. officials. Ignored is the inconvenient truth that the U.S. military invaded Iraq, still occupies Afghanistan, coordinated a “regime change” war in Libya in 2011, and has engaged in cross-border attacks in several countries, including Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. > > Though we’ve seen other examples of the U.S. political/media elite losing its collective mind – particularly during the crazed run-up to war in Iraq in 2002-2003 and the near stampede into another war with Syria in 2013 – the frantic madness over Putin and Ukraine is arguably the most dangerous manifestation of this nutty Official Washington “group think.”… – much more at source. For your complete merriment. Do keep the funnies and ad-homs coming fast & furious. Becuase as we all know, everyone but the pro-American faction is wrong (and lying) on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/115 "2014-03-09T21:43:02Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Not sure what you mean by “debunked”. > > I saw **njtt** say this: > > (Bolded for emphasis.) > > And I think he’s right: what’s happening is realpolitik. But that doesn’t mean it’s not hypocritical. I think it’s overly simplistic to assume that the Russian speakers in Crimea would prefer to join Russia than to be independent. If the vote were being held under Ukrainian authority, I would assume that latter option would be available. It’s not as things are, with Russia calling the shots. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/116 "2014-03-09T22:40:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Becuase as we all know, everyone but the pro-American faction is wrong (and lying) on this matter. I don’t feel I’m in that crowd. But I will admit I have difficulty seeing the sense in the “Russia invades Ukraine over Crimea and somehow America is at fault” faction. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/117 "2014-03-09T22:52:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [\*\*The ‘We-Hate-Putin’ Group Think > > The only foreign policy show on the U.S. media dial this past week has been the endless bashing of Russian President Putin over the Ukraine crisis – with an occasional slap at President Obama for ever having worked with Putin on issues like Syria and Iran.\*\*]([http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-2](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-2)) > > – much more at source. > > For your complete merriment. Do keep the funnies and ad-homs coming fast & furious. Becuase as we all know, everyone but the pro-American faction is wrong (and lying) on this matter. I read your “Interview with Dmytro Yarosh, Leader of Right Sector” article from your link vomit post. What do you think that story proved? Honestly curious. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/118 "2014-03-10T01:16:35Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [\*\*The ‘We-Hate-Putin’ Group Think > > The only foreign policy show on the U.S. media dial this past week has been the endless bashing of Russian President Putin over the Ukraine crisis – with an occasional slap at President Obama for ever having worked with Putin on issues like Syria and Iran.\*\*]([http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-2](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-2)) > > – much more at source. > > For your complete merriment. Do keep the funnies and ad-homs coming fast & furious. Becuase as we all know, everyone but the pro-American faction is wrong (and lying) on this matter. I’m going to let this go with a gentle reminder that accusing other posters of lying is a warnable offense on the SDMB. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/119 "2014-03-10T01:57:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How much more proof do you need than membership of openly fascist or neo-Nazi political parties? I truly don’t understand why people are claiming that this isn’t the case… Is it simply that you don’t believe that America and western Europe would support a fascist coup? That’s rather naive, to put it mildly. You have yet to provide proof that 1-the people who were protesting the Ukrainian government were fascists and 2-the US and Europe were behind it. Other than that, yeah, great. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/120 "2014-03-10T02:09:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not the argument. The argument is that America has repeatedly invaded countries and stayed there whilst they voted, and so has no right to criticise Russia. So what? I’m not American. > [@](#): > > I do think you’re wrong in saying that Russia shouldn’t have entered the Crimea when explicitly invited to by it’s people. It should be very easy for you to provide evidence of this explicit invitation. And, frankly, I’m not sure I’d buy the argument anyway. Suppose the Mexican state of Sonora is pissed off with Mexico City and a representative of its state government “invites” the U.S. to occupy Sonora; would that justify American troops marching in there? Or do you think maybe the USA should say “Um, that’s really not our business”? > [@](#): > > To go back to Iraq, the US and allies _should_ have kept their promise to the Iraqi people in 1992 and invaded then. This is, again, a complete irrelevance when discussing the crisis in Ukraine. But I’m honestly a bit confused; when in 1992 did the United States promise to invade Iraq, and why would this constitute a promise its people wanted kept? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=7)