# Western media/Obama hypocrisy on Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134 "2014-03-07T18:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/121 "2014-03-10T02:26:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But as I forgot, this specific Ukraine thread is about Western hypocrisy so tu quoque argument is in fact quite proper. The specific subject of the thread is this: > [@](#): > > sn’t it a bit hypocrital of the West to embrace the Maidan revolution on the one hand, while condemning the Crimean referendum on the other? The “hypocrisy” under investigation is the reactions to events in Ukraine by Russia on the one hand and Ukrainian protesters on the other - which is not a _tu quoque_ issue at all. The allegation is of double standards for Russians vs. Ukrainians - which i think is easily refutable, but which is not a _tu quoque_ fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/122 "2014-03-10T02:27:05Z")
BBC reports that the same pro-Russian woman keeps cropping up in various locations in Ukraine using various different names, leading to a trend of news watchers looking for more fakes. > **[The woman 'popping up' all over Ukraine](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-26481860)** > > Is an impersonator spreading a pro-Russian message in Ukraine? #BBCtrending investigates. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/123 "2014-03-10T02:36:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Not I. > > This constant “but Iraq!” argument is stupid, and it’s time to retire it. \*\* Things that are wrong are wrong, even if someone else did it too. \*\*Even if they got away with it, in fact. It’s not a “but Iraq” argument. It is a recognition-of-fact argument that more egregious violations of sovereign national borders have certainly occurred. It’s not a “but Iraq” argument because I am not arguing for less penalty against Putin than what Western nations believe can be applied as long as direct military action is not part of it I recognize that West must not have to pay a price for violating laws but that does not mean Putin should be given a pass. But I do see why you wish to rid the debate of one critical aspect that applies to it. There is a twinge of moral antagonism with your argument when its there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/124 "2014-03-10T02:42:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It’s not a “but Iraq” argument. It is a recognition-of-fact argument that more egregious violations of sovereign national borders have certainly occurred. It’s not a “but Iraq” argument because I am not arguing for less penalty against Putin than what Western nations believe can be applied as long as direct military action is not part of it > > I recognize that West must not have to pay a price for violating laws but that does not mean Putin should be given a pass. > > But I do see why you wish to rid the debate of one critical aspect that applies to it. There is a twinge of moral antagonism with your argument when its there. _Tu quoque_ is generally considered an informal fallacy in any argument, not a “critical aspect” of the debate. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/125 "2014-03-10T02:50:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The specific subject of the thread is this: > > The “hypocrisy” under investigation is the reactions to events in Ukraine by Russia on the one hand and Ukrainian protesters on the other - which is not a _tu quoque_ issue at all. The allegation is of double standards for Russians vs. Ukrainians - which i think is easily refutable, but which is not a _tu quoque_ fallacy. I disagree. Bringing up other under occupation elections that the West has backed is perfectly valid in a “hypocrisy” debate on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/126 "2014-03-10T03:57:04Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’m going to let this go with a gentle reminder that accusing other posters of lying is a warnable offense on the SDMB. > > Just sayin’. **Jonathan** , with all due respect _I was sarcastically accusing myself and the other posters who don’t take the America-is-always-right line, of “lying”_. I can’t see why I would accuse other poster who _agree_ with me of well, anything, it’d be absurd…other than what it was, clearly a tongue-in-cheek post. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/127 "2014-03-10T05:17:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Actually Steophan there is no independence choice. Either join Russia or use the 1992 constitution that explicitly stated Crimea is part of Ukraine. But I don’t speak Russian either. A [look at](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Crimea) Wiki suggests that there were two or three different constitutions approved in 1992, one of which stated that the Crimea was independent… I have no idea which one the referendum is referring to. Common sense would suggest that you’re correct, and it will be the one that was adopted for more than one day, but common sense doesn’t seem to be all that common there at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![griffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/65b543/32.png) [@griffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/128 "2014-03-10T10:20:28Z")
When I hear about Yarosh I think he can be compared to the most notorious terrorists like bin Laden or Dokka Umarov. BTW Yarosh asked Umarov to help and carry out attacks against Russia. Right from the start Yarosh played a huge role in protests and manipulating the whole thing in Ukraine so asking for terrorist help puts him in the same row because only terrorists collaborate with terrorists and ask for help. And after this I’m not surprised that everything in Ukraine gone wild and I really doubt that such aggressors could do anything to help Ukraine and turn it into true European state. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/129 "2014-03-10T12:20:28Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > BBC reports that the same pro-Russian woman keeps cropping up in various locations in Ukraine using various different names, leading to a trend of news watchers looking for more fakes. > > [#BBCtrending: Pro-Russia 'fakes' in Ukraine? - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26481860#FBM347468) [A lot of that sort of thing going on](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10683298/Russias-information-warriors-are-on-the-march-we-must-respond.html): > [@](#): > > Let’s be clear about the “self-defence forces” in Crimea – sometimes called “pro-Russian forces”: they are Russian troops. They are driving vehicles with Russian plates. Their machine guns are definitely not for sale at local shops. They have not arrived in Crimea to defend the local Russians from attack because local Russians were not under attack. They are there to create hysteria, to undermine the government in Kiev, and to persuade outsiders that the accelerating Russian occupation of Crimea is legitimate – and perhaps that the coming occupation of eastern Ukraine, or other parts of Ukraine, is legitimate too. And it seems to be working too, judging from some in this thread. > [@](#): > > The bald-faced lie has now become commonplace – RT is already showing Crimea as “Russia” on its electronic maps – along with other, spookier, tactics. Even the NSA doesn’t actually publish the interesting gossip it hears on Angela Merkel’s phone, but the Russian secret services have no qualms about posting misleading audio clips online, taken out of context. The latest, if you missed it, was a fragment of a conversation between Baroness Ashton, EU high commissioner for foreign policy, and the Estonian foreign minister. She was calling from a landline in her office in Brussels, he was on a landline in Tallinn. During the call, made at the height of the violence in Kiev, the Estonian repeated a garbled theory he’d heard about the identity of the snipers who were shooting demonstrators. > > His garbled theory didn’t prove to be remotely true: the BBC Ukrainian service investigated, and spoke to the doctor who was the alleged source of the gossip. No one who was there has any doubt that the Ukrainian government, with Russian support, ordered the men to fire. But the seed of suspicion has been planted. The conversation is now being cited by Russian parliamentarians and used to spread the outrageous story that the demonstrators themselves organised snipers to kill fellow demonstrators. Gosh, that sounds familiar… Which is not to say that the other side of the argument is pristine - there were certainly fascists and right-wing nationalists among the protesters, some of which are in the new government - but to suggest that what happened in Kiev and what is happening now in the Crimea is ludicrous. And for those who think that what happened in Iraq means that the West ought to stay out of it: frankly, what happened in Iraq ought to mean that everyone else should know how badly these things turn out. “Two wrongs” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/130 "2014-03-10T15:16:45Z")
Not one word from Western leaders about the unconstitutionality of the coup in Ukraine – on the contrary, they all back it and praise it as a show of “the will of the people” – but they’re considering Crimea’s referendum unconstitutional. No hypocrisy there, no Siree. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/131 "2014-03-10T15:19:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not one word from Western leaders about the unconstitutionality of the coup in Ukraine – on the contrary, they all back it and praise it as a show of “the will of the people” – but they’re considering Crimea’s referendum unconstitutional. > > No hypocrisy there, no Siree. Way to ignore the entirety of this thread there, **RedFury**. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/132 "2014-03-10T15:22:08Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not one word from Western leaders about the unconstitutionality of the coup in Ukraine – on the contrary, they all back it and praise it as a show of “the will of the people” – but they’re considering Crimea’s referendum unconstitutional. AFAIR, there is a provision for impeachment in Ukrainian Constitution. The impeachment passed in the Parliament by a huge majority. What exactly is unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/133 "2014-03-10T15:28:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > AFAIR, there is a provision for impeachment in Ukrainian Constitution. The impeachment passed in the Parliament by a huge majority. What exactly is unconstitutional? As I’ve said to you before: The vote was under duress because the protestors had stormed the buildings. They could have at least waited a frigging day or two after that if they wanted the vote to appear legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/134 "2014-03-10T15:30:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As I’ve said to you before: The vote was under duress because the protestors had stormed the buildings. You claim it was under duress. You haven’t provided any evidence. Like, for example, testimony of a parliament member recanting his vote. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/135 "2014-03-10T15:35:18Z")
The fact that the government leader had fled and that the opposition suddenly all switched from voting for an interim government to impeachment is all the proof I need. Frankly, I think the presence of an armed mob occupying the government buildings puts the onus on you to show there wasn’t duress. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/136 "2014-03-10T15:39:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Way to ignore the entirety of this thread there, **RedFury**. On the contrary – it’s right on point if short and sweet. Have a great Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/137 "2014-03-10T15:39:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The fact that the government leader had fled and that the opposition suddenly all switched from voting for an interim government to impeachment is all the proof I need. Frankly, I think the presence of an armed mob occupying the government buildings puts the onus on you to show there wasn’t duress. First of all, the opposition that didn’t want to impeach left the parliament. And after that, still a huge majority voted to impeach. It’s simple - the mob is not there now (it wasn’t there before, either. At most, it was right outside the building) - it isn’t even outside the building. You can’t show that even one of the parliament members that voted to impeach Yanukovich has recanted his vote or claims it was under duress. Your argument of “duress” is bunk. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/138 "2014-03-10T15:40:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The fact that the government leader had fled and that the opposition suddenly all switched from voting for an interim government to impeachment is all the proof I need. Frankly, I think the presence of an armed mob occupying the government buildings puts the onus on you to show there wasn’t duress. Well, except that up thread this was debunked of course. But even if it wasn’t and in fact it’s true, it was purely an internal matter…as opposed to what’s happening in the Crimea. Which is the core point on the whole supposed ‘hypocrisy’ issue. Well, unless you believe that the US/EU was in fact behind the angry mobs ousting the old government (perhaps with some hidden US/NATO commando types helping things along and making sure the ‘vote’ went the way the US/NATO/EU/Jews wanted it too…or something). Otherwise, it’s hard to see the hypocrisy between what Russia is doing in both the Ukraine and Crimea and what various western leaders did or said in response to a purely internal power change in the Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/139 "2014-03-10T15:40:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is completely false. South Korea’s armed forces answer solely to the Republic of Korea. The Commander-in-Chief is the President of South Korea. > Well, no, you can’t. They’re not occupations. The term “military occupation” has a rather distinct meaning that clearly isn’t met in those cases. > > I mean, did Canada ALSO occupy Germany when it had troops there up until the 90s? Gosh, who was in control of that country? Yes. Not Germans. SK military is controlled by the _US in time of war_ > [@](#): > > The Republic of Korea and the United States agreed to a military alliance in 1953.[7] They called it “the relationship forged in blood”.[8] In addition, roughly 29,000 United States Forces Korea troops are stationed in South Korea. In 2009, The South Korea and United States pledged to develop the alliance’s vision for future defense cooperation.[9] Currently South Korean forces would fall under United States control should the war resume. This war time control is planned to revert to South Korea in 2015, but conditions may call for a further delay in the plan which was initially set for 2009.[10] > > At the request of the United States, President Park Chung-hee sent troops to Vietnam to assist American troops during the Vietnam War, maintaining the second largest contingent of foreign troops after the United States. In exchange, the United States increased military and economic assistance to South Korea. President Roh Moo-hyun, despite having been elected on a liberal platform, also authorized dispatching a small contingent of troops to Iraq in 2004 at the request of President George Bush. South Korea is an appendage of the empire. Thought that was common knowledge ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/140 "2014-03-10T15:42:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I disagree. Bringing up other under occupation elections that the West has backed is perfectly valid in a “hypocrisy” debate on this topic. Then you don’t really understand what the ‘tu quoque’ form of argument is. The essence of it is the allegation that ‘you’ (meaning the US here) have done the same thing that ‘you’ are accusing others of doing, and so are in no position to complain - for example, ‘you’ have invaded Iraq, so ‘you’ can’t complain about Russia invading Crimea. Complaining about the West/US having double standards for the actions of others simply isn’t a tu quoque. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=8)