# Western media/Obama hypocrisy on Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134 "2014-03-07T18:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/141 "2014-03-10T15:44:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > South Korea is an appendage of the empire. Thought that was common knowledge So in fact, South Korea’s military is not presently under U.S. control, would only be, possibly, under U.S. control if the war with North Korea resumes, and that is of course if South Korea decides that’s okay (as one sees immediately upon reading the entire treaty.) Surely you do not believe the U.S. contingent in South Korea, a tiny fraction the size of the South Korean armed forces, is exerting any sort of control over South Korea? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/142 "2014-03-10T15:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=WillFarnaby] South Korea is an appendage of the empire. Thought that was common knowledge [/QUOTE] Certainly…it’s on par with the common knowledge that the Jews control everything, that the US government brought down the Twin Towers (and fired a missile into the Pentagon) and other such things. Basically, the US does not in fact control the South Korean military (or any other aspect of South Korea, which is a sovereign, independent nation). In a time of invasion, a US commander will act as overall allied commander of forces on the Korean peninsula…similar to how during WWII, Dwight D. Eisenhower was Supreme Allied Commander. This didn’t mean that the British (or other allied military’s) were under US control. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/143 "2014-03-10T15:59:09Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > On the contrary – it’s right on point if short and sweet. Short, sweet, and thoroughly debunked. But don’t let the facts stop you. > [@XT](#): > > Basically, the US does not in fact control the South Korean military (or any other aspect of South Korea, which is a sovereign, independent nation). One of the last roles my FIL had before he retired from the US Army was working with the South Korean military, negotiating the sale of weapons to SK, that sort of thing, and, boy howdy, he would have LOVED for them to be under the control of the US military. They may have been allies but they were a nightmare to work with, according to his stories. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/144 "2014-03-10T16:02:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Short, sweet, and thoroughly debunked. But don’t let the facts stop you… O’Reilly? Pray tell, where? * * * [**Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia**](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idUSL6N0M72SY20140310?feedType=RSS&feedName=marketsNews) > [@](#): > > (Reuters) - Ukraine’s Crimea region has invited the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to send a mission to observe Sunday’s referendum on joining Russia, Russia’s RIA news agency said on Monday. > > It said the invitation had been issued to the Vienna-based security and human rights organisation by the region’s pro-Russian parliament… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/145 "2014-03-10T16:06:50Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > O’Reilly? Pray tell, where? > > * * * > > [**Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia**](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idUSL6N0M72SY20140310?feedType=RSS&feedName=marketsNews) Can you point to some law, whether Crimean or Ukrainian, some legal basis that allows Crimea to conduct this referendum? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/146 "2014-03-10T16:36:53Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] O’Reilly? Pray tell, where? [/QUOTE] 😛 Considering some of the sources you’ve used in your various link vomit, I’d say O’Reilly (presumably Bill from Fox) would actually be fairly credible. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/147 "2014-03-10T16:57:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you point to some law, whether Crimean or Ukrainian, some legal basis that allows Crimea to conduct this referendum? There’s NO legal Governemnt in Ukraine at the moment, for as much as Obama & the US love to recognize it, it is clearly the result of an _illegal coup_. [**Issues Under Fire: Obama’s Rush to Legitimize Ukraine’s Fledgling Usurpers**](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/10/1283493/-Issues-Under-Fire-Obama-s-Rush-to-Legitimize-Ukraine-s-Fledgling-Usurpers) > [@](#): > > In a desperate effort to keep pace with Vladimir Putin as the Russian Federation quickly establishes facts on the ground in Crimea, the Obama administration announced Ukraine interim Prime Minister will be received at the White House Wednesday. > > Racing to legitimize Mr. Arseniy Yatsenyuk may be the only way the United States can pressure Russia into accepting the West’s man in Ukraine. > > Why Europe has withheld gushing support for the fledgling usurpers is no mystery. The E.U. already has a corrupt economic catastrophe with strong Neo-Nazi, xenophobic and racist elements within its midst. The E.U. has had Greece and its Golden Dawn party to contend with, far longer than its patience can withstand. > > Since Ukraine is conceivably nothing more than a money pit, the Europeans are wise to carefully weigh its option and actions before risking economic ties with Russia. Failing to see anything significant Ukraine can bring to the European Union, the usual pleas for freedom and dignity ring rather hollow right now. > > Looking more like rabid aggressors than peacefully protesting underdogs, by all accounts, when the going got tough, the tough guys started kicking asses. In the street battle of the “borscht boyz,” the latest so-called fighters for freedom won it hands down. No reason for pity here. > > Smartly keeping its powder dry, the Europeans are content to let the United States take the lead and all the risk. Angela Merkel and company will simply hide in the thicket of confusion, until its clear Ukraine is worth the time, effort and expense. Embracing a bunch of corrupt, broke and uncouth losers with little if any value, can bring nothing but aggravation and a guarantee of economic instability. > > \ > > Considering the White House is having difficulties explaining Ukraine’s strategic value to the United States, its beginning to looks as though Barack Obama has been lured into another international conflict with nothing to gain and everything to lose. > > Bottom line: The only thing worse than getting involved in another man’s fight, is doing so blindly. And taking sides too early is always a bad idea. Thus the Crimeans have every common-sensical right to refuse to recognize the authority of an illegal coallition of far-right agitators and oligachs that currently form a Gov in which they have no representation and is already acting against the interests of the very people of Ukraine – by working with the IMF, the US & EU in accepting deals that would condemn Ukranians to austerity measures (read: misery) that pales to the ones they are currently suffering. In short, the Ukranian Constitution ATM is no different than a used roll of toilet paper. As is “International Law” when the West considers it to be an obstacle to its goals. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/148 "2014-03-10T16:58:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 😛 Considering some of the sources you’ve used in your various link vomit, I’d say O’Reilly (presumably Bill from Fox) would actually be fairly credible. Suggestion: keep your day job. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/149 "2014-03-10T17:14:28Z")
[**Telegram.com**](http://www.telegram.com/article/20140309/NEWS/303099928/1003/NEWS03) > [@](#): > > …Cynthia V. Hooper, College of the Holy Cross associate professor of history whose area of expertise is Russian and Soviet history, said issues surrounding government legitimacy in Ukraine are perplexing and have no easy answers. > > “We as the United States have to acknowledge the difficulty in distinguishing what is a legitimate protest against an illegitimate regime; and what is an illegitimate protest against a legitimate regime.” > > “ **We can’t accept the right of demonstrators in Kiev to overthrow Yanukovich and not also accept the right of the people of Crimea to a plebiscite, so long as the voting is fair." Ms. Hooper said. "If you endorse the Kiev protesters, you have to endorse the Crimean protesters and allow them to decide their future.** ” > > Another corrupt central government would betray the brave and patriotic efforts of the masses that protested against the Yanukovich regime at Maidan, she said. > > “The protesters on the Maidan were initially demonstrating peacefully and were fired on with live ammunition. You cannot but feel sympathy for them,” Ms. Hooper said. “That should not translate into immediate and uncritical acceptance of the interim government and those oligarchs who now wish to be associated with it.” > > “ **Those in favor of a new constitutional order in Ukraine are either tremendously inexperienced or have a record of corruption that can even rival that of Yanukovich, with his two gold toilets. The U.S. State Department seems to be ignoring that**. We don’t want the people’s movement ignored, or to have ‘the people’ just become a pawn in a battle for power between two corrupt groups.”… Right. Work interferes with this hilarity-inducing thread. Oh well… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/150 "2014-03-10T17:19:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In short, the Ukranian Constitution ATM is no different than a used roll of toilet paper. Ok. Is there ANY lawful basis to the referendum at all? Ukrainian law or Crimean? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/151 "2014-03-10T17:24:31Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, except that up thread this was debunked of course. Oh, of course, of course. Could you point it out to me though? Since, you know, that’s pretty much what happened I am curious how it was debunked > [@](#): > > But even if it wasn’t and in fact it’s true, it was purely an internal matter…as opposed to what’s happening in the Crimea. Which is the core point on the whole supposed ‘hypocrisy’ issue. I agree it’s not the same. You see, I am in the unfortunate position of not believing either side’s bullshit on this issue. And pretending a mob taking over the governement building the day of the vote is of no importance is kind of bullshit. > [@](#): > > Well, unless you believe that the US/EU was in fact behind the angry mobs ousting the old government (perhaps with some hidden US/NATO commando types helping things along and making sure the ‘vote’ went the way the US/NATO/EU/Jews wanted it too…or something). Well, I don’t know if they were “behind it” but there is no doubt a lot of behind the scenes conversation happened between Western governments and the opposition. It isn’t all Jewish conspiracy theories to wonder if they did some pushing. And sorry for the multi-split quote answer, which I usually hate seeing and doing. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/152 "2014-03-10T17:25:33Z")
So basically you’re just trawling the internet for anyone saying anything that remotely agrees with your side - including a piece about a couple of Ukranian-Americans in Rhode Island - while dismissing everything that doesn’t as “biased”. Yes, that seems like a rigorous and sound approach. I can’t see why anyone would question your credibility. I also like how you keep claiming that the Crimean referendum is entirely in response to the change of government in Kiev and has nothing to do with their Russian overlords (did I say “overlords”? I meant “protectors”) threatening them at gunpoint. I’m sure it will all be entirely free and fair. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/153 "2014-03-10T17:34:16Z")
Sorry - that last was aimed at **RedFury**. Bah. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/154 "2014-03-10T17:35:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First of all, the opposition that didn’t want to impeach left the parliament. And after that, still a huge majority voted to impeach. > > It’s simple - the mob is not there now (it wasn’t there before, either. At most, it was right outside the building) - it isn’t even outside the building. You can’t show that even one of the parliament members that voted to impeach Yanukovich has recanted his vote or claims it was under duress. Your argument of “duress” is bunk. The members that supported the government fled, the opposition either was emboldened to go further or worried about not going with the mob. Either way, that’s improper influence. That can be the only explanation for the sudden change of plans. Why do you think they suddenly turned their back on the interim government vote of the day before? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/155 "2014-03-10T17:40:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The members that supported the government fled, the opposition either was emboldened to go further or worried about not going with the mob. Either way, that’s improper influence. That can be the only explanation for the sudden change of plans. Why do you think they suddenly turned their back on the interim government vote of the day before? Because Yanukovich ran away, was nowhere to be found, and refused to sign the law? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/156 "2014-03-10T17:42:39Z")
That is hilarious. Seriously, hilarious. “Oh, he ran away when the mob stormed the building. No choice but to impeach him instead.” lol. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/157 "2014-03-10T17:43:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That is hilarious. Seriously, hilarious. “Oh, he ran away when the mob stormed the building. No choice but to impeach him instead.” lol. Which building that Yanukovich was in did the mob storm? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/158 "2014-03-10T17:50:42Z")
I don’t know. It’s plausible that someone in the military told him “We aren’t stopping them this time” and he fled beforehand. It all happened pretty rapidly. So rapidly that it doesn’t make a difference which building he was in. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/159 "2014-03-10T18:12:11Z")
To avoid a charge of hypocrisy, the West should have publicly pressed the opposition to stick with their interim government agreement. Realpolitik-wise, not sure how smart that would have been. Both sides would have probably said “No way” for different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134/160 "2014-03-10T19:32:00Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Oh, of course, of course. Could you point it out to me though? Since, you know, that’s pretty much what happened I am curious how it was debunked [/QUOTE] To much trouble for me to wade back through all of the crap to find the posts that addressed it, to be honest, so I’ll just retract the claim it was debunked and just say that there is dispute about your (and others) narrative about just how the ‘coup’ went down (and several requests in the other thread on this subject for someone to back up that narrative which I don’t believe anyone bothered to take up, so I don’t feel so bad about failing to find similar cites in this or the other tread to meet your own request). > [@](#): > > I agree it’s not the same. You see, I am in the unfortunate position of not believing either side’s bullshit on this issue. And pretending a mob taking over the governement building the day of the vote is of no importance is kind of bullshit. Being skeptical is fine, though I note with some irony that you have swallowed the ‘pretending a mob taking over the governement building the day of the vote’ without rigorous skepticism. The thing is, from the WESTS perspective, I’m missing the hypocrisy here. Even if your narrative is true and thugs overthrew the government then sat patting their clubs while the Ukraine parliament voted nervously for whatever the thugs wanted, it’s STILL not on par with what’s going on in the Crimea (and the Ukraine) wrt Russian troops doing similar things. Why? Well, because The West™ didn’t get the thugs to pressure the Ukraine parliament into doing anything…that was internal. While the Russians are an outside agency and they ARE applying pressure via military means to the situation. Unless you do believe that The West™ was doing the same thing that Russia is doing, I’m unsure how you can agree with the cries by the OP of hypocrisy. Could you explain how that works for you? > [@](#): > > Well, I don’t know if they were “behind it” but there is no doubt a lot of behind the scenes conversation happened between Western governments and the opposition. It isn’t all Jewish conspiracy theories to wonder if they did some pushing. And, even if you are 100% correct, you equate ‘behind the scenes conversations’ with naked force wrt supposed Western hypocrisy?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-media-obama-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/683134.md?page=9)